Tuesday, 28 October 2008

Tony Greenstein, Man of Violence

The post and the comments below appeared on Harry's Place



Tony Greenstein, Man of Violence

This is a guest post by Mikey

Last night the The International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network (IJAN) launched its founding Charter. Opposing Jewish statehood - because, they believe, it excludes non-Jews - the anti-Zionists will accept Jewish members only. (Non-Jews are, at best, “network affiliates.”) Like any good Jewish group, IJAN held its event in the local Trinity United Reformed Church, on the Jewish Sabbath.

Fascinated by these self-proclaimed “anti-racists” who launching a Jews-only campaign group in a church, I went along with a friend. We arrived late and I took my place in the back row by the aisle. Predictably, the meeting was very dull. I started chatting with my friend on Blackberry instant messenger. From the front echoed the buzzwords we all expect to hear at such meetings: “warmongers,” “solidarity,” “colonialism,” “Iraq,” “Ireland,” “struggle,” “neoconservatives,” and so on, and so on.

I do not believe I was alone in my boredom. Soon enough, numerous audience members appeared to be slumping in their chairs, perhaps hoping that sleep would provide some relief.

Tony Greenstein was at the meeting. He is to be found at all such meetings. After taking a phone call at the back of the room, he walked back past me to his seat. As he passed me, I quietly called out his name.

Tony Greenstein turned around, summoned all his strength, and kicked me in the shins. He started shouting and screaming. He ranted that I was a Zionist spy. He raved that I had tried to trip him up. He demanded that I be driven from the room.

As I sat there in stunned silence, and no small amount of pain, Roland Rance joined in. Possibly livid at my recent exposure of his views, he told everyone that I had a history of threatening violence: which anybody who knows me will appreciate is a hilarious fabrication. He too demanded my expulsion but he did not explain why my imaginary threats of violence offended him so much more than his comrade’s actual violence.

Amazed at the disgusting spectacle, I kept silent as the commotion increased. The word “spy” was repeated over and over. According to a woman at the back (who appeared to be assisting the organisers), my friend and I were using Blackberrys and looking around the room: proof that we were Zionist spies. As it happens, we had no commission for our troubles from MI5, the CIA, the Mossad or the Bilderberg Group, but it would have been irrelevant even we had. We were, after all, audience members at a public meeting.

An honest man sitting across the aisle, who had witnessed the attack on me, interjected that it was not my fault.

All this was in the middle of a tedious speech. The chair asked that the speaker be allowed to continue; the matter could be investigated afterwards. At that point Tony Greenstein was given the opportunity to repeat his libels and his demand for my expulsion. Roland Rance followed suit; others stood up and commented. The word “spy” was used constantly. Someone said that even if we were spies, kicking us out would do little good because the room possibly contained further spies!

From the platform, Moshe Machover tried to defuse the situation, indicating that if I behaved I should be allowed to stay. The chair seemed to agree, and so did the audience. No-one thought it relevant that I had been the victim of a spontaneous assault by Greenstein. And at no point did anyone think of asking me for my opinion. It was almost as if I was the defendant in a Stalinist show trial.

Finally, I requested to speak. I was granted a few moments to explain that Tony Greenstein had assaulted me, that I had not tried to trip him up as he was now claiming, that I was not a spy and that I had been quiet throughout the meeting. At this point the chair cut me off and I returned the microphone without complaint.

Thanks to the attack I had already suffered and the subsequent intimidation, I wondered if Greenstein and comrades were preparing a more thorough assault against me. My friend and I thought it best to leave before the end.

Only this week, Tony Greenstein was boasting on this site of his criminal violence which landed his political opponents in hospital. And others have described similar conduct by him. Does Tony Greenstein, unable to win an argument, now plan on answering all his critics with violence, instead of dialogue?


Comments

Fabian from Israel
25 October 2008, 10:11 am

I wish you recover soon, Mikey.

What man kicks in the shin when he is angry? Does Tony not know what fists are for?

Mikey
25 October 2008, 10:15 am

I was in quite a bit of pain Fabian and I am glad that Tony Greenstein did not use his fists. I was quite concerned that he and some of his comrades may have tried that tactic after the meeting and that is why I thought it wise to leave before the end of the meeting.

Andrew Coates
25 October 2008, 10:21 am

Considering that Comarde Greenstein is roughly the same size and shape as Coatesy (i.e. small and slight) I imagine you are still quivering in yer boots!

felicitas
25 October 2008, 10:28 am

There is a nice article by Marina Hyde over at the Guardian about the Bullingdon Club and its ragging of Osborne - Greenstein deserves similar treatment ie. being suspended by the legs and having his head bumped against the ground until he gives the right answer, which is, as it turns out, ‘I am a despicable cunt’.

Fabian from Israel
25 October 2008, 10:30 am

Mikey, I have translated part of your post in my blog, so the Spanish world will know about Tony, the violent church Jew.
Hahahahaha.

Mikey
25 October 2008, 10:35 am

Thank you Fabian. I do not speak Spanish but I can guess what Hombre violento means!

David T
25 October 2008, 10:39 am

These Jewish anti Zionist groups - both the religious ones like NK and the irreligious ones - are a bit like the takfiris within Islam.

Takfiris, as we know, spend the greater part of their time and energy targetting Muslims who they regard as heretics: basically, all Muslims apart from themselves.

The AZJs, similarly, appear to be primarily preoccupied with Jews who don’t conform to their political and religious vision. Non Jews barely feature in their world, except as walk on parts.

I hope that violence doesn’t become a bigger part of their modus operandi.

Dave Rich
25 October 2008, 10:42 am

You should have him prosecuted for assault.

Seriously.

Dave Rich
25 October 2008, 10:48 am

At least takrifis have their meetings in mosques!

Holding this meeting in a Church on a Friday night is real class.

Pierrot Grenouille
25 October 2008, 11:07 am

“Spy”? Humm, am I detecting a pompous attitude here? So they think they deserve a spy? a.k.a. MI5 Central office - x october 2:16 pm - “I want you to send a spy to x church; dangerous peope; the government and the Queen herself are worried; and blah blah blah”.

What happened to the classic word “provocateur“? Much more accurate, in my opinion.

Alec Macpherson
25 October 2008, 11:10 am

Agreed with Dave Rich. I’ve had similarly utterly depressing experience with a close family member which, I am convinced, did not result in violence simply because it was on the ‘phone.

(Coatsey, guess what the front-cover photographs on the Edinburgh University prospectus have been for at least been.)

Danny Smircky
25 October 2008, 11:10 am

Pierrot, I think you’re right - sounds like overblown self-importance on their part.

Mikey, as you say, Greenstein can’t give you a verbal kicking in an argument so has to resort to the real thing. Hope your shin has recovered.

Alec Macpherson
25 October 2008, 11:16 am

I’m trying cut down on individual words, as seen in my last post.

Maven
25 October 2008, 11:16 am

I wonder what a self-hating Jew does when it comes to sex? Do they become impotent? If homosexual do they make sure their boyfriend is ALSO Jewish otherwise they will get even more penis envy/regret.

The appear to be part of another implied organisation “Jews for the Second Holocaust”

I am only guessing but with a name like Greenstein
I wonder if he suffered antisemitic abuse as a kid and has grown up trying to wash off his Jewishness.

Lets face it, any Jew can easily create the Jew from Planet Bizzaro (an old Superman Comic World). Just wear trainers to a Yom Kippur service, pull out a ham sandwich during the Al Chaits and masturbate over it.

I also wonder whather such self-hating is something genetic/cultural about Jews. Note the continual self-deprication in Jewish comedians and Jewish jokes. Its as if some Jews have to punish themselves in order to demonstrate to non-Jews that maybe there is something about being Jewish that brings on hatred, and maybe there;s a grain of truth in it. Its empathy seeking.

Note how the antisemitic assertions about Jews and money bring Jewish comedians to make jokes about Jews and money so as to feed the sterotype in the belief that by doing so they can be accepted.

So, maybe, to feel accepted some Jews have to agree with Antisemitic sentiment and due to some political fringe beliefs they can find reasons why Israel fits their anti-Imperialist model. Hence, please don’t send us to the gas chambers because we agree with you. Look, I don’t want Israel. Am I a good boy now? Will you now apologise for all that antisemitic name calling?

I am very serious about the psychological models that may bring a Jew to self-hate themselves. I’m not sure there are self-hating Black people or self-hating Muslims. So why the self-hating Jew. If anyone knows of any papers written on the subject I’d be grateful to know of them.

Apologies I went from light to deep.

BTW - wish your shin better you spy. Don’t think your subtlety escaped me.

Shin Bet!

Nearly Oxfordian
25 October 2008, 11:16 am

While sympathising with your distress and wishing you speedy recovery, Mikey, one can’t help but feel sorry for TG, as one has to feel sorry for everyone who is so mainfestly mentally ill.

tim
25 October 2008, 11:18 am

Greenstein Vs Galloway.
“Celebrity Short Arse Anti-Zionist Cage Fight”

Nearly Oxfordian
25 October 2008, 11:18 am

LOL, Maven.

A Hypnotherapist Writes
25 October 2008, 11:26 am

My eyes are spinning in their sockets here.

lol
25 October 2008, 11:37 am

i wonder what kind of information they think a spy can glean from their meeting? who their leaders are? what their next action is going to be?
what can you find by listening in that they won’t gladly bore you with if you just ask?

Pierrot Grenouille
25 October 2008, 11:47 am

Celebrity Short Arse Anti-Zionist Cage Fight

A sordid, grotesque Mud Fight is certainly better. Anyone wants tickets? Tip: I’m the guy serving the drinks ;)

Marge
25 October 2008, 11:59 am

“Just wear trainers to a Yom Kippur service”

Nothing wrong with this. I’ve seen plenty of people with trainers at Yom Kippur services. In fact, the frummer the person, the more likely they will wear trainers.

The ham sandwich, OK.

s.o.muffin
25 October 2008, 12:00 pm

Well, Mikey, even without a kick in the shin, what a way to spend an evening!

But, of course, all this becomes more interesting once one attempts to analyse the convoluted meanderings of a Greenstein mind:

1. Why should the Mossad, the Bilderberg Group, the Rothschild family or the ZOG waste valuable time of its agents on a meeting of few sad types, repeating ad nauseam their obsessions? I mean, it is not like if Moshik Machover or Roland Rance are just about to dismantle the Jewish state (as much as they would have loved to).

2. And, even had the Mossad, the Bilderberg Group, the Rothschild family or the ZOG to waste their considerably well-funded stashes of money (yes, I had to segue to the current economic crisis) on a group of recidivist washouts, why should they send somebody so well known to the Master Kicker and his colleagues? Surely, if the Mossad is so clever as to manipulate the entire world and pull all the strings (and if string theory is correct, all the superstrings) in the universe, they will be clever enough to send an unknown face?

3. Or, even better, to suborn and inveigle one of the Great Leaders of The Struggle… Machover, Greenstein, Rance: which one of you is Agent Gideon?

Anyway, I have the following suggestion. Find enough well-funded individuals in London to establish the following scheme: each time IJAN holds a public meeting anywhere in London, this triggers an automatic contribution of one million pounds to United Jewish Appeal. Just imagine these nice signs in a forest in Gallilee or a school in Ofakim: “This project has been made possible through the generosity of Tony Greenstein”.

Fabian from Israel
25 October 2008, 12:25 pm

“I’m not sure there are self-hating Black people or self-hating Muslims. ” (Maven)

In the movie Malcolm X there is a scene, in the jail, when a situation of a self-hating black (Malcolm) is played.
I am sure you will find lots of those in every ethnicity or sexual orientation.

“Anyway, I have the following suggestion. Find enough well-funded individuals in London to establish the following scheme: each time IJAN holds a public meeting anywhere in London, this triggers an automatic contribution of one million pounds to United Jewish Appeal. Just imagine these nice signs in a forest in Gallilee or a school in Ofakim: “This project has been made possible through the generosity of Tony Greenstein”.” (Muffin)

Hahahahahahaha!

Fabian from Israel
25 October 2008, 12:34 pm

JNF Celebrates Israel at 61 - “The Year of Tony Greenstein”.

For over a century, JNF has helped realize the dreams of Jews around the world to create and strengthen the Jewish homeland.

This partnership has produced miraculous results, like the help of anti-Zionists in the restoration of hundreds of heritage sites associated with Israel’s rebirth.

Over the coming year, 61 JNF historic projects and partners like Tony Greenstein and Roland Rance will be featured in our site. Every month, new projects will be added and highlighted.

Please let friends, colleagues, family members and Moshe Machover know about this wonderful resource for anyone who is interested in learning about Israel’s magnificent history.

JNF would like to acknowledge The International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network (IJAN): The major source of information on the JNF historic projects and partners.
http://www.jnf.org/site/PageServer?pagename=israelat61

s.o.muffin
25 October 2008, 12:39 pm

Fabian, LOL.

“The Year of Tony Greenstein”

The Chinese already have The Year of the Rat. But I am confident that, in the best academic tradition, you’ll add a reference.

Nearly Oxfordian
25 October 2008, 12:52 pm

No, no, not trainers: gym shoes. Must be made of fabric, not leather, which trainers are.

Nearly Oxfordian
25 October 2008, 12:55 pm

The rat is an intelligent, clean animal. Greenstein would never be worthy enough to clean a rat’s whiskers.

Dom
25 October 2008, 1:01 pm

Yuck, these SWP anti-Zionists, I know the type and applaud your patience. Wherever they have a majority expect to be ganged up with no option for polite dissent; where they don’t, expect rabid opposition of a sort you were too good mannered for that day in Trinity Church. I don’t like to be too broad with words like leftist and liberal even if SWP is a little too specific to apply here, but whatever they are, to think they consider themselves progressive and opposing viewpoints somehow controlling - the words dangerously and disturbed spring to mind.

Autobahn
25 October 2008, 1:13 pm

Maven - try the self-hating Jew wiki page. aka auto-antisemitism. Somewhere online there is a huge debate whether there should be a second hyphen in auto-antisemitism, ie. auto-anti-semitism.

wardytron
25 October 2008, 1:17 pm

Of course, you could have saved yourself all this trouble by NOT BOTHERING TO ATTEND this totally insignificant meeting of a handful of obscure nutters. I mean, when I lived in Brighton, Greenstein stood as parliamentary candidate for the “Alliance for Green Socialism”. This was in a constituency which consistently delivers high votes for green and left parties, and one where the Greens were only 826 votes away in 2005 from beating the Conservatives into 2nd place.

He won 188 votes. This is fuck all. He was one of the 2 or 3 nutjobs manning the boycott Israel trestle table outside the Churchill Centre, and every Saturday I and countless thousands of other people would ignore him. I recommend a continuation of this wise policy.

Mikey
25 October 2008, 1:20 pm

wardytron,

You have a very fair point, but I have a hobby of attending meetings held by extremists. What can I say? Some people like attending football games - I attend meetings of Marxists!

wardytron
25 October 2008, 1:27 pm

Well there’s nothing wrong with esoteric hobbies, such as trainspotting, morris dancing, cheese-rolling, Greenstein-watching, and so on, but I don’t want anyone to get the impression that he’s some kind of significant and influential figure in international affairs on the level of me or Sonic or Flanker.

Deep Throat
25 October 2008, 1:46 pm

Can’t say too much.

What’s the best way for a real spy to remain concealed? Out someone else as a “spy”…………

Need I say more……….?

Boogski
25 October 2008, 2:15 pm

He won 188 votes. This is fuck all

It’s still 187 votes too many.

Is this the wanker who kicked you, Mikey? I’m just trying to get a mental picture of your confrontation. :D

David Herman
25 October 2008, 2:18 pm

yes Boogski that’s him. At the risk of sounding thuggish you should have headbutted the motherfucker.

David Herman
25 October 2008, 2:18 pm

yes Boogski that’s him. At the risk of sounding thuggish you should have headbutted the motherfucker.

David T
25 October 2008, 2:20 pm

Greenstein is NOT a ’self hating Jew’. Atzmon is.

Greenstein has huge regard for himself. His hatred is directed exclusively against Jews who do not meet his standards.

marvin
25 October 2008, 2:20 pm

Interesting hobby Mikey, great post.

David Herman
25 October 2008, 2:27 pm

David T, I think your splitting hairs over question of whether or not Greenstein is a self hating Jew. He has a regard for himself, bit his definition of a good Jew is so narrow that only a very few on ultra left or ultra religious right can possibly comply. ‘His standards’ entail a total commitment to anti-zionism and aligning himself with the enemies of the Jewish people. To my mind, this makes Greenstien , a de facto ’self hating’ Jew.

wardytron
25 October 2008, 2:35 pm

He has a regard for himself

Well it’s nice that someone has. In the 2005 election he managed to get 320 fewer votes than someone called Kimberley Crisp-Comotto.

Ben Cohen
25 October 2008, 2:36 pm

Mikey, I agree with Dave. Press assault charges against him.

lol
25 October 2008, 2:39 pm

so much is clear after seeing him on that video.

Maven
25 October 2008, 2:43 pm

Nothing wrong with this. I’ve seen plenty of people with trainers at Yom Kippur services

Marge, absolutely right. I’ve revisited my ancient memories of Crowland Road shul and realise that no-one brought a ball.

Not mocking because I have a lot of respect for those traditional Jews of faith. Long may they preserve the traditions.

Maven
25 October 2008, 2:47 pm

“This project has been made possible through the generosity of Tony Greenstein”.” (Muffin)

Fabian,

How about The Tony Greenstein Memoriall Gardens?

How quickly could we set it up?

go rimbaud
25 October 2008, 2:50 pm

Hey Mikey,

If you are seriously worried about threats of physical violence by these self-regarding tossers I’d be happy to go along to a few meetings with you.

I’m fairly unworried about a scrap with this lot.

David Herman
25 October 2008, 2:56 pm

Mikey - I’ll come to a few meetings with you too. Its better they worry.

Andrew Coates
25 October 2008, 3:22 pm

Given my view on the link above.

Mikey
25 October 2008, 3:26 pm

Thanks to all those who supported me. I would be delighted if a few more HP people turned up at these meetings with extremists.

What is always fun is attending the annual Marxism week held in the summer at the University of London. There is nothing funnier than the chance to hear John Rose get the name of the President of the USA wrong. (Check section between 5 minutes and 10 seconds and 5 minutes and 20 seconds.)

Nearly Oxfordian
25 October 2008, 3:30 pm

Sorry, Maven, but you 2 are still wrong about leather trainers ;-)

Paul
25 October 2008, 3:31 pm

“At the risk of sounding thuggish you should have headbutted the motherfucker.”

Completely agree. I can’t think of any situation where, were I booted in the shins, there wouldn’t be some form of retaliation.

Mind you, they used to say that you should never hit a man with glasses. In Greenstein’s case, I’m sure exceptions could be made…

Alcuin
25 October 2008, 3:37 pm

I wonder if, in Gene’s eyes, this would make Greenstein a man of the far left or the far right, and if his opinion were based on Greenstein’s politics or his thuggery.

Kudos to Mikey for his guts for going into such a bear pit in the first place, and for this report.

Nearly Oxfordian
25 October 2008, 3:50 pm

Alcuin, Greenstein is imo clearly demented. You can’t classify his ‘politics’ (or rather, his personal delusions) as ‘left’ or ‘right’ (which are shifting definitions anyway).

Koppers
25 October 2008, 3:52 pm

Is this the wanker who kicked you, Mikey? I’m just trying to get a mental picture of your confrontation. :D

He absolutely oozes charisma, not.

Neil D
25 October 2008, 4:03 pm

Why aren’t the Police involved?

Paul
25 October 2008, 4:06 pm

“Why aren’t the Police involved?”

Yes, that’s just what Greenstein needs - that cunt Sting getting all tantric on his ass….

Benjamin
25 October 2008, 4:24 pm

It was almost as if I was the defendant in a Stalinist show trial.

Yeah, right! Almost! LOL

Tony Greenstein
25 October 2008, 4:25 pm

It is of course typical of Harry’s Place that an assertion is taken as proof of what happened. Of course there were others who saw things differently, but no matter, in the Harry’s Place Police State, encouraged by David Herman to do a little headbutting, there is only one version.

Leave aside a ranting foaming Mikey 10 days before at the AWL-CPGB debate who pushed Roland Rance and tried to do the same with me. Or him sticking his face an inch from mine and foaming about how he hates Nazis despite allying himself with Atzmon.

In fact Mikey deliberately stuck his foot out to trip me up, being the silly man he is and I moved his leg back again. Next time he won’t be a silly boy and he will also be refused admission, with or without friends to any further meetings.

S.O.Muffin
25 October 2008, 4:26 pm

Now that measures are afoot toward the Greenstein Memorial Forest on Mt Carmel, and to avoid undue envy among the leaders of IJAN, the next step should be a new character on a children programme of Hamas TV: Roland Rat.

Paul
25 October 2008, 4:29 pm

“In fact Mikey deliberately stuck his foot out to trip me up, being the silly man he is and I moved his leg back again. Next time he won’t be a silly boy and he will also be refused admission, with or without friends to any further meetings.”

Okay, that’s your version. But can you at least admit that you are a bit of a loony?

S.O.Muffin
25 October 2008, 4:30 pm

That’s absolutely fair, Tony Greenstein:

…sticking his face an inch from mine and foaming about how he hates Nazis

I can imagine how upset you’ll be with that particular hatred.

Mikey: next time humour him, tell him how much you love Nazis.

Benjamin
25 October 2008, 4:31 pm

It’s handbags at dawn!

wardytron
25 October 2008, 4:38 pm

In fact Mikey deliberately stuck his foot out to trip me up, being the silly man he is and I moved his leg back again.

For christ’s sake, try acting your age.

Boogski
25 October 2008, 4:43 pm

Does Tony Greenstein deny calling Mikey a “Zionist spy”?

Maven
25 October 2008, 4:47 pm

Sorry, Maven, but you 2 are still wrong about leather trainers ;-)

OK! I was trying to hide my age! They were, in fact, plimsols. White canvas and rubber.

Thanks Nearly Oxfordian.

Mephisto
25 October 2008, 4:47 pm

Greenstein:

in the Harry’s Place Police State

Oh, you silly cunt.

Boogski
25 October 2008, 4:47 pm

…Goes to credibility, your honor. :D

Tony Greenstein
25 October 2008, 4:54 pm

I think when someone sticks their face an inch from yours and spits and foams that is invading your personal space, apart from the fact that they can headbutt you without being able to defend yourself. So my tolerance a week ago was just that. I made allowance for Mikey being mentally ill but if someone tries tripping you up, quite deliberately, then it is an act of magnanimity to gently place their foot back again. Sorry if Mikey is so sensitive.

Still it has clearly encouraged ‘necklace’ Herman to come out of his thuggish shell again. Always rareing for action are we David?

As for the Nazi self-hatred jibe I can confirm I love myself and my friends but I hate you fuckers and all racists.

lol
25 October 2008, 4:57 pm

interesting that greenstein pops in to comment on every one of his “internet stalker’s” posts.

i wonder who’s stalking who?

and really, after seeing that video, the aggressive tone just makes me laugh. oh no! greenstein will beat me up!

Mikey
25 October 2008, 4:58 pm

What nonsense from Greenstein:

Leave aside a ranting foaming Mikey 10 days before at the AWL-CPGB debate who pushed Roland Rance and tried to do the same with me. Or him sticking his face an inch from mine and foaming about how he hates Nazis despite allying himself with Atzmon.

The AWL meeting that Greenstein refers to was on October 12 as anyone can check. Greenstein clearly cannot recall as he claims that it was 10 days prior when it was 12 days prior. This lack of recollection has led him to make further errors. I did not push Rance but as I walked through the door, Rance was standing there and he pushed me. I did not attempt to push Greenstein either - it is is not me who is a man of violence but himself. I did tell Greenstein that I hate Nazis - a true statement - but despite his repeated claims I do not ally myself with Atzmon.

Greenstein continues from the ridiculous allegations to the absurd ones:

In fact Mikey deliberately stuck his foot out to trip me up, being the silly man he is and I moved his leg back again.

I did not try to trip up Tony Greentein - my leg was in the aisle as were the legs of many others. In so far as his comment “I moved his leg back again” it would be helpful if he explained that he did so by kicking me hard in the shins.

S.O.Muffin
25 October 2008, 4:59 pm

I can confirm I love myself

Good somebody loves you. The technical term is, I believe, “masturbation”.

Mikey
25 October 2008, 5:04 pm

Tony Greenstein can do no better than to accuse me of spitting and foaming - neither of which is true. He accuses me of being mentally ill but anyone sane and who witnessed his actions last night might be forgiven for thinking that he is in serious need of psychiatric treatment. In so far as his claim that he “gently” placed my feet back, that is a complete lie - He kicked me very hard in the shins and I was in pain.

Koppers
25 October 2008, 5:07 pm

As for the Nazi self-hatred jibe I can confirm I love myself and my friends but I hate you fuckers and all racists.

Lol - truly the words of a demented buffoon.

Stop Lying Tony
25 October 2008, 5:12 pm

Tony says:

“Mikey deliberately stuck his foot out to trip me up … and I moved his leg back again”

Oh really? You bent down, picked up his leg with your hands and moved it back into place?

You gently nudged it away with your foot?

And then, after peacefully ending this little incident, you suddenly found it necessary to interrupt the whole meeting by shouting and screaming at the top of your voice?

Not very plausible.

Tony Greenstein
25 October 2008, 5:17 pm

Idiot Winds says:

Oh really? You bent down, picked up his leg with your hands and moved it back into place?

You gently nudged it away with your foot?

Correct.

And then, after peacefully ending this little incident, you suddenly found it necessary to interrupt the whole meeting by shouting and screaming at the top of your voice?

Correct. One can’t allow violence in the movement.

And if someone repeats 20 times or so that they hate Nazis in your face, when my hatred is probably somewhat greater than Mikey or most on this list (after all I don’t take drinkeys with Atzmon and friends and nor do I complain because National Front members who visit violence on others are themselves placed in casualty by others).

Hopefully Mikey will learn from his silliness but he was correct to leave early as there were some people who were less inclined to forgive and I’m not sure, being small, that I would have been able to hold them back.

Tony Greenstein
25 October 2008, 5:23 pm

However Mikey is welcome to bring a police or civil action for damages if he seriously believes he was assaulted. I would welcome exposing this liar who was responsible for The Times having to pay £1,000 of Murdoch’s loot to Friends of Bir Zeit University for having defamed me!!!

Boogski
25 October 2008, 5:24 pm

Did you call Mikey a Zionist spy, Tony? If you deny it, then kindly say so.

Paul
25 October 2008, 5:25 pm

“He kicked me very hard in the shins and I was in pain.”

You should have stood up and lamped him then. That would have been much more becoming than simply doing all this ‘boo-hoo, poor me’ thing on Harry’s Place.

Despite the fact that Greenstein is an obvious twat and clearly in the wrong, I think this is all getting a bit silly. As somebody else said, I don’t understand why you waste your time with these cretins in the first place. And it’s getting to the stage now (with all the ‘he did this and I did that and he said this and I said that’) where the only appropriate response will be: “I don’t care who started it - you both need your heads banging together!”

wardytron
25 October 2008, 5:26 pm

What Paul said.

Koppers
25 October 2008, 5:31 pm

However Mikey is welcome to bring a police or civil action for damages if he seriously believes he was assaulted.

Equally, you could sue Mikey for slander if he is lying.

Richard Farnos
25 October 2008, 5:42 pm

I think Mikey should grow up.

Paul
25 October 2008, 5:47 pm

“Equally, you could sue Mikey for slander if he is lying.”

Can you imagine these two in court? Greenstein with his funny high-pitched voice whining on about nothing, Mikey rolling up his trouser legs and pointing to long-vanished bruises, the judge rolling his eyes, the jury wanting to slit their wrists….

A45
25 October 2008, 5:48 pm

Wardytron - Please do not reduce this trainspotting, morris dancer to the same level as the SWP.

GW

Alec Macpherson
25 October 2008, 5:49 pm

And we - yes, I am presuming to speak for the rest of the world - think you’re a pathetic middle-class nobody, Farnos.

Pierrot Grenouille
25 October 2008, 5:49 pm

“Your fault!”
“Not mine, yours!!”
“No! Yours!”
“No no no no! Yours!!”

Oh well… Where is mom? Just imagine the cops listening to the above dialogue…

GW
25 October 2008, 5:50 pm

Wardytron - Please do not reduce this trainspotting, Morris dancer to the level of the SWP

GW

Dave Rich
25 October 2008, 5:50 pm

If you hate Nazis so much why do you jump to the defence of people who fund David Irving?

Nearly Oxfordian
25 October 2008, 5:51 pm

in the Harry’s Place Police State

Do you actually know what a police state is, you utterly sad loser?

Your previous posts on various HP threads have demonstrated quite clearly what an ignorant idiot you are.

roland rance
25 October 2008, 5:52 pm

POST THIS AGAIN AND I WILL POST YOUR ADDRESS IN ITS PLACE

Nearly Oxfordian
25 October 2008, 5:53 pm

I love myself and my friends but I hate … all racists

You have just admitted that you hate yourself, jerk.

David T
25 October 2008, 5:55 pm

Just popping in to say hahahahahaha

Oh, and comment of the thread award goes to Paul:

‘Okay, that’s your version. But can you at least admit that you are a bit of a loony?”

Nearly Oxfordian
25 October 2008, 5:57 pm

One can’t allow violence in the movement

I haven’t laughed so much for ages. You support mass-murdering Nazis, you total and utter prick!

Jon d
25 October 2008, 5:58 pm

Shit happens, whenever I go into London I get my lower legs kicked to bits just for trying to board a train.

Nearly Oxfordian
25 October 2008, 5:58 pm

Can you imagine these two in court? Greenstein with his funny high-pitched voice whining on about nothing, Mikey rolling up his trouser legs and pointing to long-vanished bruises, the judge rolling his eyes, the jury wanting to slit their wrists….

ROFL. Brilliantly funny.

Richard Farnos
25 October 2008, 5:59 pm

Oh I see my stalker back. And I love to know on what basis Alec assumes that I am middle class, especially when he “presuming to speak for the rest of the world” - a very middle class activity in my experience.

Imshin
25 October 2008, 6:01 pm

Hey, Tony Greenstein.

Sorry to change the subject but…

anyone ever told you you’re the spitting image of nutty Israeli actor/comedian/film producer Tzvi Shisel? Or at least the way he looked in the nineteen seventies.

Maybe you’re related.

exposinghypocrites
25 October 2008, 6:04 pm

Tony Greenstein, today:

‘One can’t allow violence in the movement.’

Tony Greenstein, earlier this week:

‘I talked to Steve Brady, not long before we put him and a few of his comrades in hospital when they tried to take a stroll round town complete with Union Jacks.’

On his own argument, Tony Greenstein must expel himself from ‘the movement.’

More important, it is another example of Tony Greenstein’s blatant dishonesty.

Avi
25 October 2008, 6:05 pm

Hopefully Mikey will learn from his silliness but he was correct to leave early as there were some people who were less inclined to forgive and I’m not sure, being small, that I would have been able to hold them back.

So Mikey was in danger, then. The thing is, Greenstein, you and your Jew-hating friends should watch your own backs. Don’t threaten what you can’t deliver, you stupid fucking cunt.

Alec Macpherson
25 October 2008, 6:09 pm

No, Farnos, stalking would require my pursuing you across different threads or sites, making statements apropos of nothing which came before but merely expressing my absolute scorn of you. Rather like you did with Mikey.

All the best!

Dom
25 October 2008, 6:15 pm

Thing is, Tony Greenstein, Mikey is likely to be the sort of guy who wants to see what’s going on in the thick of it, but if he’s just there with a mate and you know him already, he isn’t the sort to get physical. I can well imagine what sort of raised tempers brought your faces so close together, it happens when someone’s getting all aggro and the saner man decides not to be intimidated. It’s a guess because that’s how I am and much as I enjoy discussion, any attempt to keep the peace with the angry hard left is from my experience impossible. Mikey or his acquaintances here can confirm if I’m correct.

jr
25 October 2008, 6:18 pm

I was wondering what criteria are applied when testing the Jewishness of potential IJAN stormtroopers - would it be the orthodox matrilineal, or the hitler test - one Jewish grandparent? According to their website http://www.ijsn.net (note the url fail) IJAN is open “is open to individuals who identify as Jewish”. So plenty of scope there. The website looks very international for something produced by a solitary nutter using google translate.

Stop Lying Tony
25 October 2008, 6:18 pm

Tony says:

‘You gently nudged it away with your foot?’

Correct

‘And then, after peacefully ending this little incident, you suddenly found it necessary to interrupt the whole meeting by shouting and screaming at the top of your voice?’

Correct. One can’t allow violence in the movement.

So you claim the incident ended without violence but then you started screaming like a madman because you were against violence?

Not very plausible.

he was correct to leave early as there were some people who were less inclined to forgive and I’m not sure, being small, that I would have been able to hold them back

So, as Mikey suspected, there was a plan to beat him up after the meeting.

You, Tony, knew of this planned assault.

And you claim you intended to come to Mikey’s defence, but feared you were too much of a weed - this when you boast of putting NF supporters in hospital.

Not very plausible.

Try getting your lies straight, Tony!

Alec Macpherson
25 October 2008, 6:23 pm

I was almost physically assaulted last month, discounting a glancing flying-kick (the sort of unprovoked attack which, in the cities, has blameless young men getting a knife in the throat). My crime was possessing a fedora with intent.

I responded by thrusting my face into his and roaring back. At one point, he made as if to place his hands on my shoulders. I was a gnat’s crotchet away from breaking the grip and kneeing him in the balls.

David T
25 October 2008, 6:24 pm

I do think it is a shame though, to see Mikey, who comes from a family Iraqi refugees, being attacked in this fashion. Britain should be a country in which political debate can proceed without the spectre of the sort of political violence that his family must have hoped to have escaped.

David T
25 October 2008, 6:29 pm

I have to be schoolmarmish, but I don’t want to see swearing on this thread

David T
25 October 2008, 6:32 pm

Tony

What was the libel action against The Times about?

Boogski
25 October 2008, 6:32 pm

Apparently saner heads prevailed at the front table as Mikey was allowed to speak on microphone.

Richard Farnos
25 October 2008, 6:32 pm

See Alec what I find hard to believe is that man set on physical violence as Mikey claims would attack someone’s shins? Moreover Alec don’t you find the idea of comparing being thrown out of public meeting for playing with his blackberry to a “Stalin show trial” a tad childish?

Paul
25 October 2008, 6:33 pm

“Britain should be a country in which political debate can proceed without the spectre of the sort of political violence that his family must have hoped to have escaped.”

Was shin kicking popular in Iraq then?

Sorry….

David T
25 October 2008, 6:37 pm

Well done for spotting the comedy gold in this thread!

The seveneleven Survivor
25 October 2008, 6:40 pm

See Alec what I find hard to believe is that man set on physical violence as Mikey claims would attack someone’s shins?

10 seconds googling turns this up on a martial arts site:

Also, targetting the Shins directly can be very painfull. As
many peoples shins are not conditioned and takes very little
to cause extreme pains. (if not a bone break, or a very nasty
forwards trip

Do us all a favour Farnos and talk about something you know about If there is anything you know about, and I’m not convinced.

Richard Farnos
25 October 2008, 6:45 pm

This gets better - Tony Greenstein - the Ninja!

Paul
25 October 2008, 6:46 pm

“Also, targetting the Shins directly can be very painfull. As
many peoples shins are not conditioned and takes very little
to cause extreme pains. (if not a bone break, or a very nasty
forwards trip”

So you’re saying that Greenstein is a martial arts expert? Hmm. Maybe he is. After all, insecure little fellas always go in for that type of thing - or body building.

David T
25 October 2008, 6:47 pm

The Karate Kid!!

Alec Macpherson
25 October 2008, 6:50 pm

“Stalin show trial”

What Mikey actually said was “it was almost as if I was the defendant in a Stalinist show trial”. Not “Stalin”, not even “Stalin-era”, but “Stalinist”. Based on your reasoning, Stalinist has be a hyperbolic statement since 1953.

Why d’you think sportsmen wear shin-pads?

ami
25 October 2008, 6:55 pm

David T: on the facts I have heard, the Times action was another of those disgraceful capitulations by a big company, when on the info available in my humble opinion the potential Claimant didn’t stand a gnat’s chance of succeeding if it got to court. On my assumption, it could only have been the result of some pusillanimous inhouse decision to avoid litigation at all costs that could have led to this paltry settlement.

Nearly Oxfordian
25 October 2008, 6:55 pm

I was almost physically assaulted last month

How utterly fascinating. Should be made into a film.

Roley Poley Dahl
25 October 2008, 6:58 pm

Many thanks Mikey for drawing our attention to how vile these obscene thugs are, albeit at damaging cost to your shins. I hope you recover quickly.

Nearly Oxfordian
25 October 2008, 6:59 pm

ami,
Was it something like saying that Bir Zeit is located in J&S?

wardytron
25 October 2008, 6:59 pm

TV Burp’s on any minute now.

ami
25 October 2008, 7:01 pm

And having met Mikey on occasion, try as I might I have found it impossible to imagine him foaming and spitting as alleged or at all.

Paul
25 October 2008, 7:01 pm

“TV Burp’s on any minute now.”

I’m sitting here waiting for it. And my dinner. And then it’s X-Factor. It’s Laura for me….

That Phil Spector Arena documentary should be good too.

David T
25 October 2008, 7:04 pm

Yes, ami

But I’d love Tony to tell us what untrue and damaging statement led to his well deserved pay out.

I think that we all accept that it cannot possibly be true, because otherwise, the Times would certainly not have agreed to settle.

Richard Farnos
25 October 2008, 7:05 pm

Alec when did these “Stalinist”, not “Stalin” or “Stalin-era” show trial happen?

Nearly Oxfordian
25 October 2008, 7:07 pm

Don’t confuse Alec with logic.

mitnaged
25 October 2008, 7:09 pm

Mikey, I am sorry that you got hurt and I don’t blame you for leaving early for the reasons you give. It looks like Greenstein has severe impulse control problems and if he can’t control himself and becomes violent it also means that he has to be controlled by others if necessary. Myself, I think he’s cracking up.

May I suggest that you get whatever bruises you have photographed and the photographs witnessed? If Greenstein is indeed about to nose-dive this won’t be the last time he will do this and the next person may not be as “lucky” as you were.

Maven, from what I have been told Greenstein comes from an orthodox Jewish family and it seems to me that he must have had severe oedipal difficulties and has transferred that hatred onto Jews generally and Israel in particular. If he has always had the difficulties we are hearing about, it would scarcely be surprising if he suffered abuse, whether antisemitic or otherwise, and perhaps he did indeed put that down to his being Jewish rather than to, let us say, his “unfortunate personality.” This in turn may well lead such a one to distance himself from the group which, he believes, is the root cause of the trouble and identify with one which would cause them a lot of trouble.

There are quite a few papers and books about Jewish self-hatred.

Nearly Oxfordian, I don’t believe that Greenstein is mentally ill, at least not by DSM IV criteria; rather I suspect that he is personality disordered, probably dual diagnosis - borderline/narcissistic. These unfortunates seem to lurch from crisis to crisis in their lives and sometimes these are punctuated by manifestly psychotic episodes as is shown by Greenstein’s obviously paranoid reaction to Mikey. They may also be extremely litigious and have an exaggerated sense of entitlement

One should have pity on people who are so troubled but Greenstein has shown that he is dangerous.

s.o. muffin, what a splendid idea, but it’d probably tip Greenstein over the edge.

Alec Macpherson
25 October 2008, 7:19 pm

Nearly, it was like a scene from Small Faces.

tony greenstein
25 October 2008, 7:20 pm

Fake Tony Greenstein

I know who you are. I WILL post your details in the next one of these posts you put up. Do you understand?

ami
25 October 2008, 7:21 pm

on the trainers thing: Can anyone confirm that the rationale for this was that as you are meant to afflict your soul (if not your sole) on Yom Kipppur, you were meant to wear your most uncomfortable shoes. This was in the days where you most comfortable shoes were your best shoes, made of leather, and your everyday shoes were clogs or the like. So you avoided wearing leather and wore the clogs on Yom kippur. However, these days, especially for ladies, wearing flat canvas sneakers or even plastic trainers is more comfortable than leather, so really if I wanted to afflict my soul I should wear leather shoes with 6 inch stilleto heels.

jr
25 October 2008, 7:23 pm

I normally sport deck shoes for Yom Kippur. But no sailor hat.

Richard Farnos
25 October 2008, 7:26 pm

mitnaged are you really qualified to judge whether someone has a personality disorder?

SayWhat??
25 October 2008, 7:28 pm

Mikey, log a complaint with the police against this bastard. Go to A & E, get the bruises photographed and report the bugger.

Boogski
25 October 2008, 7:30 pm

OT

Just got my FT subscription renewal price reduced by $60 simply by calling and asking. Never hurts to ask, folks. :D

hasan prishtina
25 October 2008, 7:38 pm

Thanks, jr, for the letter. Being out of the boycott loop, I didn’t know that the wonderful Mercedes Sosa was playing in Israel. Needless to say, she avoided the loons and is now half way through her tour there. Will put on one of her CDs as a tribute.

S.O.Muffin
25 October 2008, 7:45 pm

Mitnaged:

s.o. muffin, what a splendid idea, but it’d probably tip Greenstein over the edge.

Ah, the Greenstein Forest… Yes, I really like it. On reflection, let’s locate it at the Ramon Crater in the Negev, plenty of edges there. And our friend Anthony will know that there is a piece of foreign land which is forever Greenstein. Will make his loving himself so much more exciting.

Josh Scholar
25 October 2008, 7:50 pm

Well there’s nothing wrong with esoteric hobbies, such as trainspotting, morris dancing, cheese-rolling, Greenstein-watching, and so on, but I don’t want anyone to get the impression that he’s some kind of significant and influential figure in international affairs on the level of me or Sonic or Flanker.

Amusing!

Koppers
25 October 2008, 7:54 pm

Dear all

Let’s have an anagram competition for the words tony greenstein.

I’ll kick it off with:-

Teens One Trying

Nearly Oxfordian
25 October 2008, 7:55 pm

mitnaged,
One can feel pity for ill people, at the same time as stepping out of their way when one sees them coming at you with a foaming mouth.
I don’t claim to be an expert, but imo anyone exhibiting psychotic episodes is as close to be mentally ill as makes no odds. These are all rather arbitrary labels, surely.

Nearly Oxfordian
25 October 2008, 7:57 pm

being, even.

Clap Hammer
25 October 2008, 7:59 pm

Tony Greenstien.

I will pray for you.

In Jerusalem.

In a church.

That was once a synagogue.

Amen

Graham
25 October 2008, 8:08 pm

Alec when did these “Stalinist”, not “Stalin” or “Stalin-era” show trial happen?

Turkmanistan would be one very recent example:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F06E5D61539F934A15752C0A9659C8B63

Anyone else come out of a meeting and found themselves surrounded by hobbit-like swuppies who seem to have positioned themselves so that any movement on your part would look like an assault on their person? Happens to me quite often and I find the shoulder charge very useful in such situations.

Richard Farnos
25 October 2008, 8:17 pm

So Graham is this Turkmanistan trial really comparable to be thrown out the public meeting? Or would that not be childish?

Alec Macpherson
25 October 2008, 8:19 pm

Anthony Greenstein results in, threatening yen son, which would be appropriate if ever he took a dislike to Japanese bankers.

Graham
25 October 2008, 8:21 pm

That wasn’t what you asked Richard - what is childish is your continual attempts to change what you think the thread should be about.

In my opinion most of the tiny meetings which you, Greenstein and the other self-agrandising failures of the political world indulge yourselves at are childish to begin with so it is unsurprising that they would behave like mini-Stalins (second time as farce and all that what?)

Alec Macpherson
25 October 2008, 8:26 pm

I tell you what’s childish, Farnos. Childish is seizing on a non-point to make a claim which no-one was making. Not to mention Stalinist.

I await your explanation as to why Brownie cannot be described as a Blairite has he has never sat in on Cabinet decisions; merely attended his local Labour Party meeting.

Boogski
25 October 2008, 8:28 pm

Happens to me quite often and I find the shoulder charge very useful in such situations.

Lol! I didn’t know what a “shoulder charge” was until now. I like it! :D

Graham
25 October 2008, 8:31 pm

Well I totally agree Alec. Mikey was clearly saying that the lack of concern about the attack on his shins made him feel as HELPLESS as a defendent in a Stalinist show-trial (ie: that nobody was interested in what he had experienced at all as the outcome was pre-conceived.) The fact that Richard Farnos has latched onto this with his usual trope about sub-godwinesque hyperbole is just a further attempt to undermine Mikey using Stalinist methods.

Quite funny though!

Alec Macpherson
25 October 2008, 8:34 pm

So, is Richard a sub-Leninist Pooteresque controlling creep or a pathetic middle-class nobody, Graham?

“And I love to know on what basis Alec assumes that I am middle class” compared to TG’s “I love myself”. Which is more fist-swinging?

Graham
25 October 2008, 8:35 pm

Probably all of those things.

Anyway here is a masterful example of the shoulder charge:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YLt4wTtOQPo&feature=related

Richard Farnos
25 October 2008, 8:39 pm

Look Graham and Alec, Mikey compared being thrown out a meeting in the UK for playing with his Blackberry to a “stalinist show Trial.” I am sure that he was refering to trials in the 30’s but perhaps he had Turkmanistan in mind. If this was a “non-point” (whatever that means) than Mikey is responsible not me. However this, together with idea that focus of any first strike in a fight would be the shins, makes Mikey’s story really hard to believe.

Graham I was not at the meeting, whether it was small or otherwise I can not say. The fact that Mikey was at the meeting, does that make him a “Mini-Stalinist”?

Alec Macpherson
25 October 2008, 8:42 pm

Look Graham and Alec, Mikey compared being thrown out a meeting in the UK for playing with his Blackberry

No he didn’t. Run along and play now, there’s traffic outside.

Lilo
25 October 2008, 8:43 pm

Mikey perhaps you would clarify something for me. You are empowered enough to write about this on a blog - why don’t you do the right thing by going to the Police and pressing charges against Greenstein, thus ensuring he won’t be able to behave like a violent thug to anybody else?

Another thing I want to say is I’m totally pee’d off by some of the comments saying that Greenstein is the way he is because of some anti-Semitic incident in his past. It’s about time you stopped blaming Gentiles for everything that ever goes wrong with and for Jews. Has it ever occurred to you that Greenstein is the way he is because he’s just a terrible person? Lots of them about - including some Jews.

Nearly Oxfordian
25 October 2008, 8:45 pm

… idea that focus of any first strike in a fight would be the shins, makes Mikey’s story really hard to believe

Drivel.

Nearly Oxfordian
25 October 2008, 8:46 pm

It’s about time you stopped blaming Gentiles for everything that ever goes wrong with and for Jews.

Nobody was doing any such thing.

Richard Farnos
25 October 2008, 8:47 pm

Nearly Oxfordian - please explain?

Alec Macpherson
25 October 2008, 8:50 pm

Graham I was not at the meeting, whether it was small or otherwise I can not say.

That Graham only alluded to this particular meeting makes this another non-point intended to direct the thread in your chosen direction.

The fact that Mikey was at the meeting, does that make him a “Mini-Stalinist”?

No. There is a far stronger case for accusing TG of a chumming up with neo-Nazis and other antisemites.

#Brooom!# #Brooom!# #Screech!#

David T
25 October 2008, 8:50 pm

Thinking about it, I have just realised that, if anybody were to repeat the untrue and damaging libel that the Times settled over, we would be in danger of republishing that libel.

Therefore, I want to make it absolutely clear that I will delete ANY mention of, or allusion to the nature of whatever lie it was that The Times published. Tony Greenstein has a perfect right to protect his reputation, and if somebody did make a statement that was materially untrue, then it is imperative that it be condemned, and that it never see the light of day, in civilised society.

Most particularly, I will ban any poster who suggests that the defamatory statement was actually true. This is tantamount to suggesting, not only that Tony Greenstein is a liar, but also that he effectively demanded money with menaces from The Times. That is a very serious accusation: because it implies that Mr Greenstein is a criminal blackmailer.

The only person who I will allow to repeat the statement over which he sued, is Tony Greenstein himself.

If he does so, he will do us a service. Because, in doing so, we will all be alerted to the nature of these vile untruths, and accordingly, will know when to spot and censure them. I, for one, will take the lead in condemning them.

Tony: please help us out here…

Richard Farnos
25 October 2008, 8:50 pm

Alec - I stand corrected - Mikey was not thrown out, he left of own accord - so how is that comparable to a “stalinist show trial?”

Nearly Oxfordian
25 October 2008, 8:51 pm

OMG - you want it in words of one syllable? It is perfectly possible to start a fight by kicking someone’s shins. I have seen it happening.

Given Greenstein’s general infantilism, it seems very appropriate and not at all unlikely.

Alec Macpherson
25 October 2008, 8:54 pm

It’s been explained to you, Richard. Expecting endless verification from others, whilst considering your rather glaring errors to be irrelevant, is another suggestion of Stalinism.

Graham
25 October 2008, 8:55 pm

Look Graham and Alec, Mikey compared being thrown out a meeting in the UK for playing with his Blackberry to a “stalinist show Trial

Oh dear. Afraid he didn’t. What he did do was compare the lack of concern shown for the fact he was assaulted with the (totally helpless) defendent of a Stalinist show trial. Time for some remedial reading lessons perhaps?

Graham
25 October 2008, 8:57 pm

The fact that Mikey was at the meeting, does that make him a “Mini-Stalinist”?

Apparently they thought him more of a McCarthyite spy.

Lilo
25 October 2008, 8:57 pm

Nearly Oxfordian I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt - you obviously haven’t read Mitnaged’s comment at 7.09pm

Boogski
25 October 2008, 9:05 pm

Thinking about it, I have just realised that, if anybody were to repeat the untrue and damaging libel that the Times settled over, we would be in danger of republishing that libel.

Unless court documents are sealed, isn’t it a matter of public record?

David T
25 October 2008, 9:07 pm

I’m sorry Boogski

I’m afraid I’m going to have to take a strict line here.

Tony is the only person who I will allow to discuss the nature of the libel that he suffered.

Fabian from Israel
25 October 2008, 9:16 pm

I am interested in knowing if Greenstein called Mikey a “Zionist spy”.
Mikey should expect a whiping when he returns to HQ if that is true.

Tony, let us know if we should discontinue Mikey’s services.

Koppers
25 October 2008, 9:18 pm

Thinking about it, I have just realised that, if anybody were to repeat the untrue and damaging libel that the Times settled over

Isn’t that the alleged untrue and damaging libel that The Times settled over?

At the moment we only have Tony “squeeky voice” Greenstein’s word for it.

I’d like to see a shred of evidence that Greenstein was ever libelled in the first place.

Orangina
25 October 2008, 9:19 pm

I second David T’s request for urgent clarification on said matter. As we all know, Tony Greenstein is a law abiding member of the community. Always has been…

Mikey — true Greenstein has this rather strange tough-guy reputation, (hang on, can’t type whilst wiping away tears of laughter) I’m not convinced there’s much validity to this and would have recommended you put Boney, I mean, Tony, to the test. What you can still do about this matter, is go to the cops and press charges.
Wish your shins better.

Zionist Spy
25 October 2008, 9:31 pm

Mwahahahahaha!

wardytron
25 October 2008, 9:33 pm

I wonder what the law makes of the fact that the convicted sex offender, war criminal and serial killer wardytron is allowed to post here. Surely this blog should be shut down.

Richard Farnos
25 October 2008, 9:34 pm

Yes Alec, if someone is making such a serious allegation I expect some if not “endless verification from others.” The trouble with Mikey’s recollection is that it clearly exaggerates (all that Stalinist shit) which clearly raises doubts about the creditability of his other recollections. This neatly brings me on to Nearly Oxford point.

Of course a fight could start with a kick to the shins; it also could start with a stab in the eye, a fist to the face, gut or groin. The point is which is more likely? Moreover the idea that the injuries were initiated by Mikey himself blocking Greensteins path seems more credible to me. After all, according to Mikey, this was in the middles of a supposed boring speech from a colleague of Mr Greenstein- hardly the time to start a fight?

Alec Macpherson
25 October 2008, 9:38 pm

Richard, are you still suggesting that Mikey suggested he was threatened in whatever way for playing with his Blackberry?

David T
25 October 2008, 9:38 pm

Please, please!

No more talk of this “libel” business.

Can’t you see that you put me in an intolerable position!

Richard Farnos
25 October 2008, 9:44 pm

Alec, I am questioning whether Mikey was threatened at all.

Alec Macpherson
25 October 2008, 9:47 pm

You’re as inconsistent as TG. Are you *now* suggesting that he did not physically assault Mikey and that no-one in the audience was prepared to do so again?

ami
25 October 2008, 9:48 pm

What if, and I am speaking purely hypothetically here- the complainant does not dispute the act which is the subject of the l-bel, but disputes the categorisation of, or the motivation imputed to, the act. Perhaps he could just state the agreed facts and let them speak for themselves.

Richard Farnos
25 October 2008, 9:49 pm

Yes

Alec Macpherson
25 October 2008, 9:51 pm

Well, then you’re contradicting TG himself. You really are a pathetic waste of an intellect.

Richard Farnos
25 October 2008, 9:57 pm

I have no idea of TG position, I understand THt he clais that any injury occured on Mikey was as a consequenece of Mikey blocking his path. That sounds more crediatably to me. While TG may have handled the situation better, it is hardly assault.

By the by Alec why do feel the need to belittle me?

Richard Farnos
25 October 2008, 9:58 pm

THt should read TG

Alec Macpherson
25 October 2008, 10:04 pm

TG’s own account of Mikey’s behaviour and his response has been contradictory. Mikey’s has not been.

TG also stated that there was a potential ambush planned against Mikey. I find *this* credible.

By the by Alec why do feel the need to belittle me?

Because you’re a creep? Oh, I know, I should grow-up and stop bullying you for calling you a creep.

Nearly Oxfordian
25 October 2008, 10:04 pm

Nearly Oxfordian I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt - you obviously haven’t read Mitnaged’s comment at 7.09pm

I have no idea what you are talking about. I have replied to mitnaged’s post …
I don’t have to share mitnaged’s opinions, if that’s what you are driving at.

Nearly Oxfordian
25 October 2008, 10:09 pm

Of course a fight could start with a kick to the shins; it also could start with a stab in the eye, a fist to the face, gut or groin. The point is which is more likely?

Completely irrelevant, indeed quite laughable. Any individual has his or her own preferred method of initiating physical aggression, should he be an individual that initiates physical aggression in the first lace.

Moreover the idea that the injuries were initiated by Mikey himself blocking Greensteins path seems more credible to me.

Bollocks.

Boogski
25 October 2008, 10:11 pm

Question for Mikey:

Did you have your leg sprawled out in the aisle in what could be remotely considered an obstructive manner? Why was your leg even in the aisle? And yes, it matters.

Richard Farnos
25 October 2008, 10:13 pm

Well, Alec, I disagree I think TG explanination is more crediable.

Alec, that a side what I don’t understand is why you hate me so much. After all to my knowledge we have never met.

Nearly Oxfordian
25 October 2008, 10:15 pm

Oh, for fuck’s sake - some people have long legs. I often find myself having to sit next to the aisle with my legs in it, if the distance between the rows is too small for comfort. Just try to tell me face to face that I am being aggressive - you could expect a kick in the shins.

Nearly Oxfordian
25 October 2008, 10:19 pm

Yes Alec, if someone is making such a serious allegation I expect some if not “endless verification from others.”

Can we have endless verification from TG, then?

That aside, please concentrate on your typing, Your spelling is atrocious, and your punctuation likewise (the closing quotes go before the full stop above, for instance).

The Hasbara Buster
25 October 2008, 10:19 pm

At this point, blaming it all on Israel Shamir begins to look like a good idea.

KB Player
25 October 2008, 10:23 pm

“I wonder what the law makes of the fact that the convicted sex offender, war criminal and serial killer wardytron is allowed to post here. Surely this blog should be shut down.”

Not to mention your littering and parking on double yellow lines. Hope that tag is chafing you.

Boogski
25 October 2008, 10:24 pm

Nearly,

He was sitting in the aisle seat. His foot could have been next to the chair in front of him, or it could have been in the middle of the fucking aisle.

Mikey
25 October 2008, 10:24 pm

Richard Farnos,

The comment about the Stalin show trial was due to the fact that one by one it seemed people were standing up to denounce me as Zionist spy. No one thought of asking me for my opinion until I finally interjected myself as the chair wanted to move on to other matters. One by one people got up to denounce me. I was awaiting the equivalent of Andrei Vyshinsky who famously said things such as the following:

“Shoot these rabid dogs. Death to this gang who hide their ferocious teeth, their eagle claws, from the people! Down with that vulture Trotsky, from whose mouth a bloody venom drips, putrefying the great ideals of Marxism! Let’s put these liars out of harm’s way, these miserable pygmies who dance around rotten carcasses! Down with these abject animals! Let’s put an end once and for all to these miserable hybrids of foxes and pigs, these stinking corpses! Let’s exterminate the mad dogs of capitalism, who want to tear to pieces the flower of our new Soviet nation! Let’s push the bestial hatred they bear our leaders back down their own throats!”

Stephane Courtois, “Conclusion: Why?” in Stephane Courtois et al. eds., The Black Book of Communism: Crimes Terror Repression (Cambridge MA: Harvard University Press, 1999) p. 750

It was in this context that I used the comparison.

Inna
25 October 2008, 10:28 pm

I think most people have said what needs to be said. And Mikey, I hope you are feeling better!

But (please forgive my American ignorance): what in the name of all that is holy does Ireland have anything to do with Israel/Palestine? I know there are books out there about how an Egyptian princess married a Celtic king or something.. but somehow I suspect that may not be the entire reference?

Regards,

Inna

The Hasbara Buster
25 October 2008, 10:31 pm

That aside, please concentrate on your typing, Your spelling is atrocious, and your punctuation likewise (the closing quotes go before the full stop above, for instance).

If instead of Nearly Oxfordian you were Nearly Bostonian, for instance, you would be aware that in American English it’s customary to put the closing quotes after the period.

Or maybe you are aware, and your rejection of the practice is yet another example of your intolerance of dissent.

pbr streetgang
25 October 2008, 10:31 pm

Not popped in for a while guys and know nothing much of Greenstein apart from what I have read on here, but, what a fucking loony!

Alec Macpherson
25 October 2008, 10:37 pm

Good to see you again, PBR. Meet Buster. He’s lovely.

Boogski
25 October 2008, 10:37 pm

Welcome, pbr streetgang. This is almighty, over. :D

Richard Farnos
25 October 2008, 10:42 pm

Nearly (if I can be so famliar), I am Dyselixic to more spelling isn’t great. Moreover I think you miss the point TG cliames that any injury was due to Miket obstruacting his way. Now this implies that Mikey refused to move if asked. Whatever the rights or wrongs of thid situatition the gulag it is not.

Mikey I haven’t a clue what happened at the meeting - I was not there, however I find comparasions to to “Stalinist trails” unbelieveable, when push comes to love , was your life was never really under threat?

Maven
25 October 2008, 10:43 pm

Ref: Greenstein and mental state

We have been trying to do a denigration psychological analysis.

If the Tony Greenstein handle who posted is the real Tony Greenstein then think about that phrase he used about “invading my personal space”. Its not the usual type of phrase someone would use in the 21st century. There is something significant about that but I can’t decide what.

Mikey
25 October 2008, 10:46 pm

To come back to some others:

@Ami

Thank you for your supportive comments.

@Fabian

Yes, Greenstein did call me a Zionist spy and so did Roland Rance.

Richard Farnos states, (spelling and grammatical errors left in place):

I have no idea of TG position, I understand THt he clais that any injury occured on Mikey was as a consequenece of Mikey blocking his path. That sounds more crediatably to me.

and Boogski asks me:

Did you have your leg sprawled out in the aisle in what could be remotely considered an obstructive manner? Why was your leg even in the aisle? And yes, it matters.

In response to Richard Farnos and Boogski:

Yes I did have my leg sprawled out in the aisle but so did others who were also seated on an aisle seat. My leg was in the aisle as I was seated in an aisle seat and I slouched back in my chair and stretched my legs out as one might do if they were seated in a relaxed position on a chair. My leg was not obstructive as it could have easily been stepped over or walked round (the aisle was substantially wider than the distance my leg stretched) and it was easy to see. (Admittedly, a blind person may not have seen my leg and tripped up if they were not walking with a cane to check where they were walking.)

Greenstein has not claimed that I did trip him up as I did not. He clearly saw my leg. Rather than walking around it or step over it, he took the opportunity to kick me hard in the shin and then let out a stream of abuse. These are the facts.

Lilo asks me (and others have asked or suggested similar):

why don’t you do the right thing by going to the Police and pressing charges against Greenstein, thus ensuring he won’t be able to behave like a violent thug to anybody else?

I am contemplating doing exactly that.

Lilo goes on to comment:

Another thing I want to say is I’m totally pee’d off by some of the comments saying that Greenstein is the way he is because of some anti-Semitic incident in his past. It’s about time you stopped blaming Gentiles for everything that ever goes wrong with and for Jews.

I think it is fair to say that I am not “blaming Gentiles for or everything that ever goes wrong with and for Jews.” It can be noted that Greenstein is himself Jewish.

No Shit Sherlock
25 October 2008, 10:46 pm

Of course a fight could start with a kick to the shins; it also could start with a stab in the eye, a fist to the face, gut or groin. The point is which is more likely?

Inspector Morse this person is not.

Lilo
25 October 2008, 10:54 pm

Mikey, you misunderstood me - I didn’t mean that you yourself blame Gentiles for everything - but at least one post on this thread did, and let’s face it many Jews who see anti-Semitism everywhere, even when it’s not there - do.

I hope you will go ahead and press charges against Greenstein.

Makhno
25 October 2008, 10:55 pm

Whatever the rights or wrongs of thid situatition the gulag it is not.

First Richard Farnos (wrongly) accused Mikey of making a direct comparison of the Ijan meeting to a Stalinist show trial and now he has moved on from there to bring in the the up until now totally untouched upon subject of the gulags.

Whatever his point may be I would think that judged by his own standards of exaggeration nobody here can actually be taking him seriously now.

Richard Farnos
25 October 2008, 10:59 pm

Mikey, when you saw TG or for that matter anyone else walk down the aisle did you move your legs?

David T
25 October 2008, 11:02 pm

Are you suggesting that if Mikey moved his legs, that that was tantamount to trying to trip Greenstein?

Or are you suggesting that if Mikey did not move his legs, that was tantamount to trying to trip Greenstein?

Can we make the nature of the charge clearer, please?

M o r g o t h
25 October 2008, 11:05 pm

This thread has more feet/shin/leg action than a Shoe Fetistish’s Convention.

Boogski
25 October 2008, 11:09 pm

My leg was not obstructive as it could have easily been stepped over or walked round (the aisle was substantially wider than the distance my leg stretched) and it was easy to see.

Okay. So your leg was if fact in the walkway. Agreed that you weren’t trying to trip anyone but your leg shouldn’t have been where it was. You would’ve been sanctioned back in my theater usher days. :D

Richard Farnos
25 October 2008, 11:11 pm

If we are to have trial by blog, David, than at least thinks must me questioned. Otherwise, surely it becomes a kangaroo court?

David T
25 October 2008, 11:12 pm

You would’ve been sanctioned back in my theater usher days. :D

Is “sanctioned” a euphemism for “receive a savage shin-scuffing”?

Richard Farnos
25 October 2008, 11:12 pm

me = be

David T
25 October 2008, 11:13 pm

If we are to have trial by blog, David, than at least thinks must me questioned.

I have read this sentence several times, and am still none the wiser as to its meaning.

David T
25 October 2008, 11:14 pm

thinks must be questioned

??

No, still none the wiser.

Mikey
25 October 2008, 11:14 pm

Boogski you say:

Okay. So your leg was if fact in the walkway. Agreed that you weren’t trying to trip anyone but your leg shouldn’t have been where it was. You would’ve been sanctioned back in my theater usher days. :D

There was no sign that I saw that said legs should not be in the aisle nor did any of those helping out at the meeting ask me to take my feet out of the aisle. It should also be noted that others in aisle seats also had their legs in the aisle. Certainly it was not suggested to me that if you put your leg in the aisle the punishment for it is to be kicked hard in the shins and to be accused of being a Zionist spy!

Richard Farnos
25 October 2008, 11:16 pm

Earlier you seemed to suggest that my questioning of Mikey was out of order- if I got the wrong end of the stick - forgive me.

Richard Farnos
25 October 2008, 11:17 pm

Mikey did you move your legs when you saw people coming?

David T
25 October 2008, 11:18 pm

No, Richard.

I merely asked you whether the assumption underlying the question was whether Mikey was at fault for having his feet in the aisle, or for moving them. I thought it a perfectly proper question to ask. I just wanted to know what lesson you hoped to draw from it.

By the way, I am still none the wiser as to what “thinks must be questioned” means. Can you help me out here?

David T
25 October 2008, 11:19 pm

Sorry Richard - I think it really is important that you tell us what significance you see in the movement, or lack of movement, of Mikey’s legs.

Brownie
25 October 2008, 11:20 pm

Hopefully Mikey will learn from his silliness but he was correct to leave early as there were some people who were less inclined to forgive and I’m not sure, being small, that I would have been able to hold them back.

I know it’s testosterone-fuelled bullshit to say so, but I really do wish I’d been there. We can sit around all evening talking about how right Mikey was to retain the moral high-ground, rising above the schoolboy provocations of Greenstein, but there does come a point when people like TG and his pals need a taste of their own medicine.

Come and kick these shins you pug-faced wanker…*

(*…is what I’ll shout if I can ever be arsed to get out of my chair and attend one of these meetings)

Richard Farnos
25 October 2008, 11:23 pm

Lets hope, David, you ever become a fucking Judge. You know very well the importance of this question, just let Mikey answer - if is answwer now can ever be sincere.

Richard Farnos
25 October 2008, 11:24 pm

ever == never

Boogski
25 October 2008, 11:24 pm

Is “sanctioned” a euphemism for “receive a savage shin-scuffing”?

:D

No, but it would likely get you and your entire party illuminated with the dreaded “torch of exposure”. Not a good thing when you (and you’re girlfriend) are trying to maintain a low profile. :D

Alec Macpherson
25 October 2008, 11:25 pm

Mikey, granted the Police in my town have less on their plates, but I did precisely the same, whilst emphasising that I wanted only for my would-be assailant spoken to. Of course, he didn’t have a history of this sort of thing.

Nor, do I assume, does Tony Greenstein over whatever these unproven allegations were.

Mikey I haven’t a clue what happened at the meeting - I was not there,

Not even Sgt. Toolan.

however I find comparasions to to “Stalinist trails” unbelieveable, when push comes to love , was your life was never really under threat?

Again, this ain’t what you or Mikey have been saying. Now, about Brownie the Blairite…

Boogski
25 October 2008, 11:27 pm

Your you’re your you’re fuck fuck fuck!

Shmuel
25 October 2008, 11:27 pm

I myself received a rather nice settlement after being punched in the face by someone who accused me of “looking like a zionist”. I recommend it highly.
Hugely satisfying.

David T
25 October 2008, 11:28 pm

Richard

I am merely asking, politely, for you to tell me what you think the significance of the question you are asking is. Do you say that Mikey is as fault for moving his feet, or for not moving his feet? It must be one or the other. Which is it?

Can you also please tell me what “thinks must be questioned” means?

Brownie
25 October 2008, 11:28 pm

Now, about Brownie the Blairite…

I’ll sue if this slur is repeated.

I’m officially a Mandelsonite now.

Alec Macpherson
25 October 2008, 11:31 pm

Look at me, I’m Brownie.

Alec Macpherson
25 October 2008, 11:35 pm

I don’t think this has been addressed, so has anyone informed the Trinity United Reformed Church of what went on?

David T
25 October 2008, 11:36 pm

Please Richard. I want to go to bed!!

Shmuel
25 October 2008, 11:39 pm

David T, Do you think that people like Richard *actually* have an interest in the truth, or are you taking pleasure in publicly humiliating him? (Serious question.)

Richard Farnos
25 October 2008, 11:39 pm

If I told you, David, the significance of the question that I ask Mikey, surely that would effect his responce - if your intervention hsan’t already.

David T
25 October 2008, 11:40 pm

I honestly do not know. I am more than prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Alec Macpherson
25 October 2008, 11:41 pm

Shmuel, no and yes.

Richard Farnos
25 October 2008, 11:44 pm

“I am more than prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.”

I am not.

It is not a hard question. Did Mikey move his legs when he saw TG coming?

David T
25 October 2008, 11:45 pm

surely that would effect his responce

But you would strengthen your position, if you chose between the two options: that he should have retracted his feet, or that he should not have done so. You see, if you do not choose, then Mikey will be able to accuse you - unfairly of course, but in a rhetorically powerful manner - of changing your interpretation, post hoc as it were, to suit the answer Mikey gave.

By stating your position clearly, you will neatly sidestep that avoidable pitfall.

Can you please tell me what that other post meant. Come on! Humour me!

Maven
25 October 2008, 11:45 pm

“Now Mr Mikey, would you show your leg to the jury. No Mr Mikey, the one that is six feet long and two feet wide. Now, is it true you have a history of RLS (for the jury that is Restless Legs Syndrome) as well as severe bouts of cramp?

Also Mr Mikey you say that the conference was so boring that you fell alseep. Is that not so? I have here the police records of an incident in 2007 where you were found wandering naked through Bovingdon at 1:32am kicking at various objects and shouting “Goal!”. Upon the attention of the police doctor it was determined that you had a somnabulist episode (if you will, sleep-walking incident) and thought you were Michael Owen. Is that not so Mr Mikey?

To the members of the jury, I put it to you, a man with a six-foot by two foot leg, with Restless Legs Syndrome, suffering from bouts of leg cramp and a history of somnabulist soccer is more likely to have fitted the evidence offered by the fragrant Mr Greenstein and I ask you to find favour with the anti-Zionist Jew and award him the finest hock of ham from Harrods”

Mikey, better not sue!

Richard Farnos
25 October 2008, 11:46 pm

Why doesn’t Mikey just answer the question, or does he have to hide?

Boogski
25 October 2008, 11:47 pm

There was no sign that I saw that said legs should not be in the aisle nor did any of those helping out at the meeting ask me to take my feet out of the aisle. It should also be noted that others in aisle seats also had their legs in the aisle. Certainly it was not suggested to me that if you put your leg in the aisle the punishment for it is to be kicked hard in the shins and to be accused of being a Zionist spy!

Oh I’m with you on this, Mikey. The fact that other people had their legs in the walkway but Greenstein chose to kick you seals his fate.

All I’m saying is that it’s annoying as fuck to have to step around something that has no business being there in the first place. And yes, it is customary for you to move your shit out of the way if it has no business there.

Alec Macpherson
25 October 2008, 11:48 pm

“I am more than prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.”

I am not.

Fred Hollis?

It is not a hard question. Did Mikey move his legs when he saw TG coming?

If he said no, would it count against him?

David T
25 October 2008, 11:49 pm

I am not.

I think you misunderstand me. I was saying that I was more than prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt. I am stating my confidence in your intentions. In other words, I agree with you. I think that Mikey should tell us all whether he retracted his legs, or whether they remained unmoved. And then I think you should reveal which of those actions you regard as blameworthy.

However, I do think that it would be sensible for you to state your position clearly, up front. You see, if Mikey is indeed a malicious tripper, he will almost certainly change his position. You will then be able to accuse him of cutting his suit to fit the cloth. His blame will have been compounded, while you will have been shown to be a model of transparency, and praised for it.

I know it sounds a little political. However, you’re not averse to a little bit of politics, are you?

Richard Farnos
25 October 2008, 11:55 pm

Fair enough David, if I got the wrong end to stick, forgive me. The point is neither I, you, Alec, Boogski, Maven or whoever can answer this quetion about Mikey’s legs. Only Mikey can.

Alec Macpherson
25 October 2008, 11:56 pm

Thus, Richard, Mikey remains in a passive position, lounged back in a chair; a stance which makes it difficult, if not impossible to threaten TG with his feet, even were he not concentrating on the Blackberry.

And, *still* would have us believe he was to blame? Hello, Stalinist, anyone?

Richard Farnos
25 October 2008, 11:58 pm

Alec - you are making assumptions again.

Shmuel
25 October 2008, 11:59 pm

“the question was whether Mikey was at fault for having his feet in the aisle, or for moving them.”

I think the Talmud actually has commentary on this. But the fact that it happened on shabbos might complicate matters.

Boogski
26 October 2008, 12:06 am

underline test

David T
26 October 2008, 12:09 am

I think we must face up to the sad truth that Mikey has either run away, or is asleep

Am I the only one who detects a certain carnival spirit on this thread. Is it Bacchanalia tonight by any chance?

Maven
26 October 2008, 12:13 am

Barrister: “Now Mr Greenstein, I understand you call yourself an anti-Zionist Jew. Would you explain to the jury what that means?”

Greenstein: “Yes your holiness, Sir, Barrister for the Righteous. I happen to believe that as a Jew, Israel shouldn’t exist because it should let non-Jews become citizens.”

Barrister: “Correct me if I’m wrong but there are 1.8m non-Jewish citizens of Israel. And if they should have a child then that child is a citizen of Israel”

Greenstein: “Fook You! I told them I didn’t want a Jewish Barrister. Get me Jenny Tonge!”

Barrister: “I was merely trying to establish that you are a man of integrity who can hold a position even though that position is false and thereby you are a man of honour”

Greenstein: “Well I never thought of it that way. You’re good!”

Barrister: “Now, as a man of demonstrable integrity I want to go over your story again. It was dark, you were walking down the aisle of a high level Government sponsored conference when an octopus-like leg proceeded to wrap itself around you while a voice shouted “Greenstein you c-nt I’m going to strangle you and take you down with me to Davy Jones locker, Ahar and Shiver Me Timbers. As anyone would do in the circumstances you stabbed that tentacle several times with the Tarzan The Ape Man Machete you always carry with you. You realise, that in the panic of the moment this was in fact the defendant, Mr Mikey, who posseses a six-foot long leg. Mr Mikey then proceeded to insult you by calling you a “Dick-headed c-nt, a disgrace to humanity, a Hitler-loving nancy boy, with small penis and AIDS”. Despite this torrent of abuse we should point out that you are not suing for libel but for assault. Is that correct?”

Cont P94

YossiUK
26 October 2008, 12:13 am

“The AZJs, similarly, appear to be primarily preoccupied with Jews who don’t conform to their political and religious vision”

I think it is salient to point out, that most anti-Zionist religious Jews like myself, are not preoccupied by Jews who don’t conform to our religious views. We just quietly live out lives and and care for all our fellow Jews Zionist or not. Don’t confuse us all with some lunatics from Neturei Karta, who have been condemned and disowned by almost every Haredi group, including I might add, but the moderate wing of Neturei Karta.

Maven
26 October 2008, 12:15 am

Is it Bacchanalia tonight by any chance?

No its Saturday Nite Live on HP!

Shmuel
26 October 2008, 12:17 am

I don’t know either of these people, but they both seem humorless. One is completely earnest and a little naive, the other is a lunatic.

David T
26 October 2008, 12:18 am

If Mikey was attending a meeting on Shabbos, can he really ever be said to be blameless? Or even a Jew?

If he has truely disassociated himself from the body of World Jewry, to entertain himself on the night he should be observing a rest day, it can fairly be said that he is not a Jew, and therefore had no right to be there in the first place!!

This is pure conjecture, of course.

Night Night!

ami
26 October 2008, 12:19 am

thinks must be questioned: please I can take no more of this mirth, Richard please explain- even with the extra hour we can’t wait all night

Maven
26 October 2008, 12:19 am

neither I, you, Alec, Boogski, Maven or whoever can answer this quetion about Mikey’s legs. Only Mikey can

I have clearly settled the truth of the matter and Mikey has nothing to answer. His only dilemma is whether to get the other leg enhanced or the six-foot one reduced.

“Tarzan”, “problems with legs” - where’s the Pet & Dud Trazan sketch when you need one?

Alec Macpherson
26 October 2008, 12:28 am

Where to the ceilidh, David?

Richard, please tell us how someone in that position could effect a tripping up. Everything Mikey has said has been consistent, and indicates that what his position. Everything TG has said has been barking. Everything you have said has been Stalinist.

Shmuel
26 October 2008, 12:33 am

“If he has truely disassociated himself from the body of World Jewry, to entertain himself on the night he should be observing a rest day, it can fairly be said that he is not a Jew”

There is certainly no Talmudic or Biblical prohibition against attending an anti-Zionist meeting on Shabbos. (Entering a Church on the otherhand…) But aside from that, perhaps Mikey intended to trip TG, without moving his legs, as Farnos half-insinuates, so as to avoid the prohibited work such an action would have involved. I’m assuming the best of Mikey, Super Jew.

Richard Farnos
26 October 2008, 12:49 am

Hay I want to wait to hear from Mikey, but to let you into a a clue, the issues here isn’t whether Mikey sort to trip Tony - it is far more basic than that.

Alec Macpherson
26 October 2008, 12:55 am

Says who, Richard? You? Naff off.

Sid
26 October 2008, 12:58 am

hahahahahahahahaaaha!

Mikey, my sympathies. You should have roundhoused him in the neck.

Richard Farnos
26 October 2008, 1:00 am

ERR Alec there - such a productive bunny

Alec Macpherson
26 October 2008, 1:02 am

No, Richard. Mikey has stated his position many times over. You, however, have consistently lied both about what he has said and what you have said. Your position is now that he was culpable because he did not move his legs out of TG’s path, and that any response from TG was as justified as a 15 year kid thinks it justified to carry a knife in case someone ‘disses him.

No it wasn’t, and no he can’t.

Richard Farnos
26 October 2008, 1:04 am

So why doesn’t he answer my questions Alec?

Graham
26 October 2008, 1:11 am

You know very well the importance of this question

Very much so. I think the importance for an historian is certainly whether the Russian revolution itself could have happened had people sat with their feet in the aisle during Lenin’s meetings. Certainly injuries would have been caused on a grand scale and we must be thankful that order number one of the Petrograd Soviet whilst abolishing saluting and standing to attention also found time to lay down the internationally accepted socialist principle that Potemkin potentates should be able to strut the aisles of church halls everywhere without fear of being cut down in their prime by the size nine boots of a Zionist spy.

nearly oxfordonian
26 October 2008, 1:12 am

Why aren’t people paying attention to me?

I feel lonely.

Richard Farnos
26 October 2008, 1:20 am

Well Graham and Alec seem to have lost it - well I suppose it is a Saturday night, well technically early Sunday!

Alec Macpherson
26 October 2008, 1:23 am

So why doesn’t he answer my questions Alec?

Because he is under no obligation to play the games of a sub-Leninist Pooteresque controlling creep pathetic middle-class nobody. Why haven’t you answered my questions about whether you were deep-frying live kittens last week? This is about as relevant as your “questions”, not to mention as unencumbered by the technicality of not having previously been asked.

It really is *this* simple. The moment you, Richard Farnos, say that “the issues here” is [whatever], we, the reader, can be absolutely sure that they ain’t. That they ain’t ever been. And that whatever they are, you are deliberately ignoring.

Did I not tell you to naff off?

Boogski
26 October 2008, 1:27 am

Holy crap, Alec. I’m a big time Yanni fan. Saw his orchestra in concert several years ago in Orlando. He had a black chick with dreadlocks playing the fiddle and she smoked it!

anna
26 October 2008, 1:29 am

Tony
Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause.

Richard Farnos
26 October 2008, 1:32 am

Alec what it your point your trying to make. All the personal virtual obscures it.

YossiUK
26 October 2008, 1:43 am

Now if all the people involved in this horrible incident, had been sitting around their family’s Shabbos table, making Kiddush, eating some lovely sweet challah, singing Shabbos songs, then this whole unpleasant situation might have been avoided.

As a people we have sufficient enemies, and sufficient hatred directed at us, do we have do add more to the pot?

Alec Macpherson
26 October 2008, 1:47 am

Alec what it your point your trying to make.

That you’re a liar. That you’re employing Stalinist methods. Is this too obscure?

(Aye, Boogski, I don’t mind him, although I found this link whilst looking for Armenian music which anyone who is anyone is listening to with as we go Byzantium crazy.)

Boogski
26 October 2008, 2:04 am

It was pretty neat, Alec. People actually dressed up. Lots of suits and ties. Nothing like the rock concerts I was used to. They had stalls that sold $200 bottles of wine if you wanted (they had beer as well).

Totally different experience for me.

Pope Benedict
26 October 2008, 2:20 am

What’s this I hear? Jews fighting in a Church? Haven’t you people got synagogues of your own?

Trabi Mechanic
26 October 2008, 3:56 am

Did somebody say anagram? ‘Tony Greenstein’ quickly yields the oddly suitable ‘Energy Neon Tits’ - or, if we go with Anthony, Internet Hyena Song is not catchy but no less apt.

Benjamin
26 October 2008, 4:29 am

It was almost as if I was the defendant in a Stalinist show trial.

The post would not be complete without a bit of HP hyperbole. Going on trial in one of the most murderous states in the world, facing the risk of death or exile to Siberia, compared to a pointless punch up in a obscure political meeting in the UK no one cares about, followed by a few jars down the pub, no doubt. Clearly deeply similar.

Yaniv
26 October 2008, 4:42 am

May I provide you Mikey with the friendly suggestion that you would skip this whole thing, avoid complaining in the police and concentrate in the future on Greenstein’s “political” (well, loony is definitely better) views, like you did so many time in the past? You have suffered enough, and there is no need to spend some extra time at a waiting room in a police station, before launching a futile attempt to complain about Greenstein’s violence (how many time have you seen him behaving this way in the past?). Even if the police would believe every word you say, and TG would certainly present a contradictory version, they won’t do anything. They almost surely won’t spent any efforts trying to resolve another Rashomon.

I think, however, that it’s good that you posted that story. If it happens again to you or to someone else, then it would be another sign of deterioration of the “Jewish” anti-zionist movement.

Tony Greenstein
26 October 2008, 5:12 am

I see the loonies have been busy.

How interesting that the supporters of the Iraq War, the cheer leaders for Israel’s having killed 80 Palestinian children this year alone, are up in arms over Mikey’s shins.

But of course Richard Nixon was impeached for Watergate not the secret war of genocide in Cambodia so it fits.

What I love about HP and its belief in ‘free speech’ is that Mikey was allowed to write an article presenting one side only. As I have said he can lie till he’s blue in the face here but when The Times had to defend his comments on Aaronovitch’s blog Richard Rampton QC took the position that it couldn’t be defended. And Mikey himself admitted to having become somewhat psychologically distressed at hearing arguments, i.e. free speech, that contradicted the brainwashing he’d experienced as a child.

In a letter from the house lawyer at The Times of 2.7.07. this is the quote from Mikey’s ’supporting’ statement to them:

‘“I was a student myself in the period X-Y and I can assure you that when I heard Greenstein speak, I felt very intimidated - and yes I was a Jewish student. In fact my current fascination with collecting information about Tony Greenstein and trying to deconstruct all of his arguments, psychologists might put down to getting some revenge for the stress he caused me with his pamphlets and speeches as a student.”

Now it is irrelevant if the usual right-wing racist nuts at HP believe what I say or not. To be quite blunt I don’t give a toss, since it matters not a jot. Those of us who are anti-Zionist and anti-racist Jews, a distinct minority, have to put up with threats of violence, including hate mail (swastikas etc.) all the time. In fact there were times when getting such stuff I wasn’t sure whether the letters were from the NF/BNP or Zionists since the most anti-semitic crap (pity Hitler didn’t get you etc.) came NOT from fascists but Zionists. That is the real self-hatred and anyone familiar with Zionist writings will be well aware of what people like Jacob Klatzkin wrote about the ‘hideous and disfigured’ Jewish people in the diasporah.

So I need no lessons from racists like the Israeli Fabian or the other muck which thinks it’s amusing to post a message in mine or Roland Rance’s name. Mikey has already been proved to be a liar on The Times blog so he’s clearly got form.

But the other attribute of HP is the ability to make false allegations without a seconds thought. Apparently I have convictions for violence - now what would they be?

Well I was once prosecuted for ABH for disarming someone with a knife, but not only was I acquitted but commended by Hove magistrates. This is provable since I received a rather large award for a knife wound from the Criminal Injuries Board as it was then.

Or there was the Police prosecution for Threatening Behaviour when I had a gentle talk with a couple of fascists. Problem is I was acquitted of that too.

So if Mikey wants to go ahead and make either a complaint to the Police or bring a civil action for personal injury then he does it knowing that there are witnesses both to the current allegations and his previous behaviour.

In fact Mikey is lying in any case. His feet were not sprawled in the aisle. Noones were. They were like everyone else in front of him. He deliberately stuck them in front of me as I walked down the aisle and the alternative to moving them away from me was to step on them, bearing in mind that I had almost lost my balance. He would then have complained because it could have broken his leg, so if his shins did get bruised then he has only himself to blame for his juvenile antics.

Yes there were people who were angry with him. I also spoke to them and told them on no account to accost him because, unlike Zionists who support the bombing of civilians I am resolutely opposed to violence other than in self-defence.

So put that in your pipe and smoke it! Hopefully Atzmon’s drinking partner and buddy will start to grow up.

TG

Auntie Ziona
26 October 2008, 5:49 am

Sunday, 26 October 2008
The IJAN is Birthed - with Two Jews Fighting in a Church
Oy gevalt, it seems that my two little nephews, Mony’le and Miki’le, have got nothing better to do than tripping and kicking each other in a church.

Mony’le hates the churches…………

http://azvas.blogspot.com/2008/10/ijan-is-birthed-with-two-jews-kicking.html

Auntie Ziona
26 October 2008, 5:53 am

Sunday, 26 October 2008
The IJAN is Birthed - with Two Jews Fighting in a Church
Oy gevalt, it seems that my two little nephews, Mony’le and Miki’le, have got nothing better to do than tripping and kicking each other in a church.

Mony’le hates the churches.

http://azvas.blogspot.com/2008/10/ijan-is-birthed-with-two-jews-kicking.html

Boogski
26 October 2008, 6:29 am

Why can’t you answer a simple question, Tony? Did you or did you not call Mikey a Zionist spy? Yes or no?

Boogski
26 October 2008, 7:09 am

This looks good:

Gran Torino

I used to have a Gran Torino. Huge fucking engine.

Stop Lying Tony
26 October 2008, 7:45 am

Tony Greenstein says:

Apparently I have convictions for violence - now what would they be?

I haven’t seen anyone on this thread calling you a convicted thug. You’re definitely a self-confessed thug:

I talked to Steve Brady, not long before we put him and a few of his comrades in hospital when they tried to take a stroll round town complete with Union Jacks.

I took the time to read the link with examples from Sussex student union:

Greenstein attacked a member of the Sussex delegation to NUS Conference (April 1981), was forcibly restrained by Graham Nicholas (then a Vice-President here), and was ultimately removed from the conference floor …

Greenstein assaulted John Brooke-Rhodes, the NUPE Convenor on campus …

Greenstein led the intimidation of a Brighton Polytechnic student, Brian Conn, who left his Jewish Society stall at Freshers Fair, in tears and thoroughly afraid, and who has not returned to the Poly since.

What about your shifting versions of the assault on Mikey?

He deliberately stuck [his legs] in front of me as I walked down the aisle and the alternative to moving them away from me was to step on them, bearing in mind that I had almost lost my balance. He would then have complained because it could have broken his leg, so if his shins did get bruised then he has only himself to blame for his juvenile antics.

How does this tally with your previous story?

“You gently nudged it away with your foot?”

Correct.

“And then, after peacefully ending this little incident, you suddenly found it necessary to interrupt the whole meeting by shouting and screaming at the top of your voice?”

Correct. One can’t allow violence in the movement.

Now it seems you didn’t gently move your victim’s leg after all. You kicked him in the shins.

You kicked him so hard, you’re worried the injury may be visible when he reports you to the police.

Nor did you end the incident peacefully. You say he was lucky you didn’t break his leg.

That’s on top of your earlier statement about plans to beat him up at the end of the meeting.

So you boast of putting people in hospital, you admit to injuring someone by kicking him in the shins, you say he was lucky you didn’t break his leg, you confirm knowing about another planned assault.

Good luck in court Tony …

Dave Rich
26 October 2008, 8:34 am

Those of us who are anti-Zionist and anti-racist Jews, a distinct minority

Just to clarify, does this mean you think most Jews are racist? Have you asked them all for their opinions first, or is this just a working assumption?

Fabian from Israel
26 October 2008, 8:54 am

“So I need no lessons from racists like the Israeli Fabian”

I am also Argentinean.

Fabian from Israel
26 October 2008, 9:09 am

For living in Israel, I am racist for Tony.

In Argentina the accusations of racism work differently. You are accepted totally as an Argentinean, whether you are Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, etc. etc. It is a very inclusive form of national identification (not shared of course, by the minority of right-wing Catholic nationalists). But it is very intolerant of difference. So I was once accused in Argentina by a coworker of being racist because I mentioned to him that I decided I wanted to marry a Jewish girl. You can be as Jewish as you want, but you absolutely cannot say to a non-Jewish friend that you want to marry a Jew. You are then putting “religious fanaticism” above “love”, a terrible offense. And then your non-Jewish friends rethink whether you were a true friend all these years because you never wanted to marry them…
That is how it works there…

Nearly Oxfordian
26 October 2008, 9:35 am

He was sitting in the aisle seat. His foot could have been next to the chair in front of him, or it could have been in the middle of the fucking aisle

And it could have been waving in the wind.
And your point?

Maven
26 October 2008, 9:36 am

Greenstein, when you write came NOT from fascists but Zionists. That is the real self-hatred and anyone familiar with Zionist writings will be well aware of what people like Jacob Klatzkin wrote about the ‘hideous and disfigured’ Jewish people in the diasporah.

You clearly aren’t writing about a “Zionist” but a Jew.

You demonstrate elegantly that you don’t know what the word “Zionist” means. How many letters did you get from Kansas Evangelicals or Mormons? Did Gordon Brown write one of these letters?

You seem to not cater for a Zionist not being Jewish. By excluding non-Jews from your organisation you are playing a race/ethnic card by ONLY allowing a single race/ethnicity to join.

You can’t see the logic inconsistency of your own argument.

Nearly Oxfordian
26 October 2008, 9:39 am

If instead of Nearly Oxfordian you were Nearly Bostonian, for instance, you would be aware that in American English it’s customary to put the closing quotes after the period.

It is customary, and yet condemned by my literate American colleagues as, well, illiterate.

Or maybe you are aware, and your rejection of the practice is yet another example of your intolerance of dissent.

ROFL. This screeching propagandist, simply dripping with Jew-hatred, accuses me of ‘intolerance of dissent’. Unbelievable.

Nearly Oxfordian
26 October 2008, 9:42 am

Richard, I didn’t know you were dyslexic. My apologies.

Do you not agree that obstructing the aisle or not, being kicked in the shin, denounced as a ‘Zionist spy’, thrown out and threatened with further violence may have been, how shall I put it, just a tad OTT?

Nearly Oxfordian
26 October 2008, 9:54 am

And yes, it is customary for you to move your shit out of the way if it has no business there.

And it is customary, when the villein (the correct spelling!) has failed to do so, to sentence him to 24 hours in the stocks and sequestrate one half of his property + 3 chickens. Mikey got off very lightly.

Nearly Oxfordian
26 October 2008, 9:59 am

LOL, Maven. You are a barrister, right?

Nearly Oxfordian
26 October 2008, 10:01 am

I don’t know either of these people, but they both seem humorless. One is completely earnest and a little naive, the other is a lunatic.

Doesn’t follow at all.

Nearly Oxfordian
26 October 2008, 10:04 am

As a people we have sufficient enemies, and sufficient hatred directed at us, do we have do add more to the pot?

What anti-Zionists like you and TG completely fail to understand, is that Jews are first and foremost people, human beings.

pisa
26 October 2008, 10:05 am

“I’m not sure there are self-hating Black people or self-hating Muslims”

Michael Jackson?

It’s much easier for a jew to hide and/or deny his jewishness than for a black man to hide and/or deny the color of his skin. Huge difference, psychologically speaking?

As for self-hating people, they really don’t have to be jewish. Look at the 9/11 truthers - the self-hating citizens of the western civilization (mostly americans, I think - but hatred of America might be equated to hatred of the western values and way of life).

Shinpads BOGOF
26 October 2008, 10:25 am

No I always had David T and Tony G down as political opponents. You can imagine how shocked I was to read David T’s conjecture that:

“we must face up to the sad truth that Mikey has either RUN AWAY, or is asleep” (my emphasis)

The clear implication here is any injury to Mikey’s legs were insignificant

Boogski
26 October 2008, 10:32 am

And it could have been waving in the wind.
And your point?

I’ve made my point. Did you want to elaborate?

YossiUK
26 October 2008, 10:47 am

“What anti-Zionists like you and TG completely fail to understand, is that Jews are first and foremost people, human beings.”

Firstly I would ask you not to compare me to TG, as I feel I have as much in common with him as I would with George Galloway, that is not very much. We approach the issue of Zionism from very very different positions.

Secondly, I am well aware that Jews are foremost people, human beings. But what’s your point? People can have self control you know. They don’t have to engage in venomous hate filled diatribe, they don’t have to go around kicking people in the shins. We have a choice as to how we respond to things.

All I am saying is, that I just wish that amongst us, we could engender a large dose of respect and good feeling, so that we can discuss any issue without the corresponding hostility.

Such a concept is not new, Machlokes l’shem Shomayim, as an idea has been around for quite a while.

Maven
26 October 2008, 10:53 am

LOL, Maven. You are a barrister, right?

Nearly Oxfordian, that is a massive compliment you paid me. Many of my friends say that I should have been a barrister because of my argumentative logic and psychological make-up.

In NLP terms Barristers tend to be the type known as auditory-digital, which means they communicate in words to describe the world and present a case (obviously) and that happens to be my communication and personality style. (btw, that’s why I write lots!)

I recently forced two people to send written apologies to myself and those with whom they had communicated a libel. The letters I wrote convinced them that I had taken legal advice - but I had not. I then discovered that the father of one of them was a retired Barrister who told his sibling to apologise and avoid any legal nastiness!

The only thing a Barrister has over me is knowledge of the law and knowledge of case history precedent. Oh, and the patience to read all that stuff.

Alec Macpherson
26 October 2008, 11:08 am

(No lumberjack shirts allowed, Boogski?)

They almost surely won’t spent any efforts trying to resolve another Rashomon.

Wa-haha!

TONY GREENSTEIN

bearing in mind that I had almost lost my balance. He would then have complained because it could have broken his leg

Yes, let’s bear in mind that you say you could have lost your balance. This would have involved your continuing in a forward direction, over his forelegs as is the intent of a tripping-up. Anyone else who would have been injured would have been the person in front. What you would not have had would have been the concentration of energy and stability in your lower body to deliver a kick. Unless…

It’s been said before, but another won’t hurt. Stop lying, Tony.

Oh, and fuck off, Benji.

Dave Rich
26 October 2008, 11:19 am

All I’m wondering is, if Tony meant that most Jews are racists, then given how much he insists that he hates racists…well I wouldn’t want to make any conclusions about what comes next without some clarification from him first.

Greg
26 October 2008, 11:20 am

Greenstein sounds like a right shit, doesn’t he? It’s a pity he still calls himself Jewish. Probably only does it to lend his anti-Zionism more credence (in his mind anyway). Thankfully traitorous (and violent) cunts like him are in a tiny minority… and always will be.

Fabian from Israel
26 October 2008, 11:40 am

“Tony Greenstein was at the meeting. He is to be found at all such meetings. After taking a phone call at the back of the room, he walked back past me to his seat. As he passed me, I quietly called out his name.

Is this true then, Tony? Did Mikey call you? Did you hear him? Was this before or after you tripped?

YossiUK: Hi, a question, have you been to Israel?

YossiUK
26 October 2008, 11:43 am

Hello Fabian, yes I have.

Fabian from Israel
26 October 2008, 11:54 am

Yossi: so your anti-Zionism is of the kind of the Talmudic “don’t go up the land in masse until….”
But now that we are there, however, what do you think we should do?

Alec Macpherson
26 October 2008, 11:55 am

Yes, LOL, LOL. I quite liked:

I also spoke to them and told them on no account to accost him because, unlike Zionists who support the bombing of civilians I am resolutely opposed to violence other than in self-defence.

Well, if my wearing a fedora can be threatening, just think of the impending violence in carrying a Union flag (you’re forgiven for the Jack, it’s a matter of taste). Eh, Tony?

There is also this earlier statement:

he was correct to leave early as there were some people who were less inclined to forgive and I’m not sure, being small, that I would have been able to hold them back.

So, you’re now claiming to have spoke to them? You’re now claiming to have successfully dissuaded them? You’re now claiming that an attack on Mikey, some time after [whatever] the fact [was], could be equated with your justified response?

And I’m the Queen of Sheba.

Alec Macpherson
26 October 2008, 11:56 am

(Not to mention the incongruity with your having previously stated that it was a matter for the Irish to support the PIRA.)

David T
26 October 2008, 11:59 am

Any mention of any criminal conviction that is spent under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act will be deleted.

Nearly Oxfordian
26 October 2008, 12:02 pm

Firstly I would ask you not to compare me to TG, as I feel I have as much in common with him as I would with George Galloway, that is not very much. We approach the issue of Zionism from very very different positions.

Not as much as you think, and I will continue to make the comparison since I believe it is valid. You are both anti-Zionists, because you don’t believe that Jews are a nation like all nations, made up of ordinary people like everybody else.

Secondly, I am well aware that Jews are foremost people, human beings. But what’s your point?

My point is that both of you are obsessed with Jews somehow being special, different in some way. They are not. They are just ordinary human beings, who together make up one tribal group, just like the Japanese or the Norwegians. Like all nations, they have distinguishing national/cultural characteristics, like the ones distinguishing the Japanese from the Norwegians. But as individuals, they can be gentle or aggressive, stupid or clever, tolerant or racist, etc. Asking people to ‘get on with each other’ just because (some of them? most of them?) are Jewish is pie in the sky.

Nearly Oxfordian
26 October 2008, 12:05 pm

PS. And like all nations, they are entitled to their own free, independent country.

On what moral basis, exactly, are you demanding that Israelis give up their independent country? You have no such basis, any more than TG or GG or Hamas has one.

Comrades Renunited
26 October 2008, 12:06 pm

Is Roland Prance currently in the “Fourth International”, i.e. ISG/Socialist Outlook/Respect Renewal?

Nearly Oxfordian
26 October 2008, 12:08 pm

Maven, almost everything you write about yourself applies to me equally ;-)
(But your sense of humour is far superior to mine, as that long screed evinces. I have entered the Dark and Stormy Night aka Bad Prose competition a few times, but got nowhere other than one brief word of praise for my inventivenesss from the chap running it).
I haven’t threatened to sue anyone for libel, but over the years have received loads of letters of apology + cheques from companies, e.g. utilities and banks, who had tried to screw me.

YossiUK
26 October 2008, 12:10 pm

Fabian,

The not going up on mass argument otherwise known as the 3 oaths argument, is the one held by Satmar etc. That is not my view. but I do respect it.

My view is simply that Israel as a secular state, is not and can not be the legitimate national expression of the Jewish nation.

I support the yishuv’s right to exist, and defend itself, but I don’t associate myself with the State’s political identity.

What should we do now that we are there? Well that depends on what exactly you refer to. Internally? Our relations with the Palestinian Arabs?

Nearly Oxfordian
26 October 2008, 12:13 pm

I see the loonies have been busy.
How interesting that the supporters of the Iraq War, the cheer leaders for Israel’s having killed 80 Palestinian children this year alone, are up in arms over Mikey’s shins.
But of course Richard Nixon was impeached for Watergate not the secret war of genocide in Cambodia so it fits.
What I love about HP and its belief in ‘free speech’ is that Mikey was allowed to write an article presenting one side only. As I have said he can lie till he’s blue in the face here … Now it is irrelevant if the usual right-wing racist nuts at HP believe what I say or not. To be quite blunt I don’t give a toss, since it matters not a jot. Those of us who are anti-Zionist and anti-racist Jews, a distinct minority, have to put up with threats of violence … blah blah …

Absolutely hilarious. Not a shred of self-knowledge about what a dumb jerk he is.

Nearly Oxfordian
26 October 2008, 12:15 pm

My view is simply that Israel as a secular state, is not and can not be the legitimate national expression of the Jewish nation

You have nil entitlement to make that decision for other Jews, who choose to constitute a secular state. You have not been appointed by anyone to speak for them. I suspect you are not even aware of the massive arrogance manifested by your position.

Nearly Oxfordian
26 October 2008, 12:17 pm

What should we do now that we are there?

You are NOT there. Hence, it is not for you to say. You are NOT ‘we’.

Fabian from Israel
26 October 2008, 12:21 pm

Hi, Yossi:

“My view is simply that Israel as a secular state, is not and can not be the legitimate national expression of the Jewish nation.”

Well, then you will have to found another Jewish state more to your liking. I think that is compatible with a non-Zionist position. An anti-Zionist position, well… that is kind of a step too far.

As a way of an analogy, imagine that I am a Argentinean with Italian citizenship and I say that Italy, as a secular state is not the legitimate national expression of the Italian nation… I think that it would be coherent of me to try to change Italy by voting for what I believe, not to be anti-Italy. As I say, it is a step too far.

“What should we do now that we are there? Well that depends on what exactly you refer to. Internally? Our relations with the Palestinian Arabs?”
Lets say both. What should an Israeli Jew do? Emigrate? Expell the Arabs? Put Ovadia Yossef as Cohen Hagadol? Name Eli Yishai King of Israel?

Alec Macpherson
26 October 2008, 12:24 pm

Any mention of any criminal conviction that is spent under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act will be deleted.

Serious question, David: why? As I understand it, any conviction will not have been quashed, merely no longer relevant when applying for positions of employment/trust.

Which this discussion is not.

Mikey
26 October 2008, 12:24 pm

Hi all,

Good morning!

I am sorry that I left this thread last night but it was Saturday night and I do like to go out and have a bit of fun on occasion. I can confirm that I was not at any sort of political gathering last night.

I can also confirm that contrary to speculation, my legs are not six foot long.

I would certainly like to thank everyone on this thread who has provided me support.

Not only is it true that I was kicked hard in the leg by Tony Greenstein, but I was also correct to feel intimidated by what was occurring in the meeting at large. As Tony Greenstein said earlier in this thread:

[Mikey] was correct to leave early as there were some people who were less inclined to forgive and I’m not sure, being small, that I would have been able to hold them back.

This is quite a clear statement confirming my fears that I outlined in my main post as follows:

Thanks to the attack I had already suffered and the subsequent intimidation, I wondered if Greenstein and comrades were preparing a more thorough assault against me. My friend and I thought it best to leave before the end.

Dave Rich asks Tony Greenstein the following:

Just to clarify, does this mean you think most Jews are racist? Have you asked them all for their opinions first, or is this just a working assumption?

I am sure Tony Greenstein is more than capable of answering this question directly himself, but the answer is clearly a yes. The reason is as follows, Tony Greenstein thinks that all Zionists are racists and as he is aware that most Jews are Zionists he views most Jews as racist. His views on Zionism being racist are clear.

Firstly he believes Zionism to be the “twin” of antisemitism. In fact, in 1982, he wrote the following pamphlet published by Brighton Labour Briefing entitled Zionism: anti semitism’s twin in Jewish garb. He summed up his view in an article he wrote in 1990:

If someone tells me that I don’t belong in this country and I should ‘go back to Israel’, that person is either a supporter of the National Front or a Zionist.

Source: Tony Greenstein, “Antisemitism Through the Looking Glass: The UJS Thought Police,” RETURN No. 3 (June 1990) pp. 21-23

His argument is based on similar fallacious logic as the following set of statements

1. All cats are mortal
2. Socrates is mortal
3. Socrates is a cat.

Secondly, away from believing that Zionists themselves are antisemites, he clearly believes that Zionism is a racist ideology and that the State of Israel reflecting that ideology is racist. In the RETURN statement that he supported and signed it stated:

the Zionist structure of the state of Israel is at the heart of racism and oppression against the Palestinian people, and should be dismantled.

(Source: Ibid. pp. 28-29)

YossiUK
26 October 2008, 12:25 pm

Nearly Oxfordian,

You are partially right.

I do view Jews as normal people, but normal people with a very special role.

I agree, I believe our Nation is not like all other Nations, or more accurately that it should not be like all other nations. I am not ashamed to hold to this view, the view held by the majority of Jews for over 3000 years. I’m not sure why this meets with such hostility from you. I understand that you do not share this view.

You may call it pie in the sky, but I have no doubt, that people, all people, can chose to get on with each other in a more decent way, and that cultures that develop this trait are possible to create. I don’t say it is easy, or that in our current climate it is likely, but it is a value I hold very dear, Kol Yisroel chaveirim, and Ahavas Yisroel, are important to me, and I don’t see anything wrong, in trying to create better feelings amongst Jews.

YossiUK
26 October 2008, 12:30 pm

“You have nil entitlement to make that decision for other Jews, who choose to constitute a secular state. You have not been appointed by anyone to speak for them. I suspect you are not even aware of the massive arrogance manifested by your position.”

I don’t make this decision for any other Jews. I don’t prevent Jews from doing what they want. I just have an opinion, and having an opinion is not arrogance. If it where, then with your plethora of opinions……

As for the ” we” business. I see myself as part of the entire Jewish people, the people in Israel are my people end of story. I don’t tell people in Israel what to do. I don’t tell anyone what to do.

YossiUK
26 October 2008, 12:43 pm

Fabian, I am not anti Israel in the sense that I work towards the destruction of the State. And in fact, I prefer to describe my views as non-Zionist.

I have no problem with religious people in Israel voting to try and change the nature of the country. I don’t support forcing religion onto the country’s non-observant population, I would just hope that gradually, Israeli Jews come to a greater level of observance.

Ultimately, I believe that the type of Jewish state I would like to see, will only come about in the times of Moshiach.

I absolutely don’t think that Jews should leave Eretz Yisroel. Eretz Yisroel is the best place for Jews. And I don’t agree with expelling the Arabs. I also don’t agree with expelling Jews from their homes as in the disengagement plan.

I support the two state solution, and as soon as it is safe to do so, if it ever is, I would support the creation of an Arab state, in Judea and Samaria.

Within Israel, I would like to see a greater return to observance, as I mentioned before, and a bettering of relations between Israeli Jews and Arabs.

And as for the King and the Kohen Gadol, I think it best we let Moshiach deal with that :-)

Fabian from Israel
26 October 2008, 12:55 pm

Thank you for your answers, Yossi.

Mikey
26 October 2008, 12:59 pm

Comrades Renunited asks:

Is Roland Prance [sic] currently in the “Fourth International”, i.e. ISG/Socialist Outlook/Respect Renewal?

The answer is that Roland Rance is a self declared Marxist and supporter of the Fourth International. He associates himself with the International Socialist Group which bills itself as the “British section of the Fourth International.”

Auntie Ziona
26 October 2008, 1:03 pm

Oi Miki’le you must come to me on Friday for special Gefilte fish & Kreplach.
I will even make tzimmes if you insist. You must make peace with Mony’le.

It breaks my heart to see my 2 favorite nephews fighting kicking screaming

There is even a picture of Mony’le in action. Oi vey the shame on my people!
http://www.azvas.blogspot.com

Nearly Oxfordian
26 October 2008, 1:18 pm

Yossi,

I am not ashamed to hold to this view, the view held by the majority of Jews for over 3000 years. I’m not sure why this meets with such hostility from you.

Several reasons:
1. It is arrogant.
2. It is counterproductive, indeed destructive. When you believe yourself to be special, and in particular, special in the sense that you are looked after by a divinity and the messiah will come to redeem you, you don’t have an incentive to work towards your own redemption as a nation. Israel came about because of people who actually went and founded villages and towns and self-defence organisations and universities and hospitals, instead of sitting on their hands and waiting for someone else to do it for them.
Jews moan about being persecuted. Those people stopped moaning and went and did something about it.
I am not telling you to be ashamed. But I can tell you that I am proud to be a descendant of those people, and to have contributed my share.

I don’t make this decision for any other Jews. I don’t prevent Jews from doing what they want. I just have an opinion, and having an opinion is not arrogance. If it where, then with your plethora of opinions……

Nobody is stopping you from having an opinion. You don’t prevent them, but you agitate against their right to have their own country.

As for the ” we” business. I see myself as part of the entire Jewish people, the people in Israel are my people end of story.

Since you oppose their right to self-determination even though you do not live there, and have not (unless you wish to correct me) participated in their existential struggle, incl. but not limited to fighting for their lives in 1948/1967/1973, they are not, end of story.

I would support the creation of an Arab state, in Judea and Samaria

I believe there is a religious injuction against giving away even an inch of Israel to foreigners, and here you are calling for this to be done. Of course, as an atheist I don’t rely on that argument myself. But I thought you would, if you were consistent.

YossiUK
26 October 2008, 1:44 pm

Nearly Oxfordian,

Firstly, there is a prohibition to sell the Land of Israel to non-Jews. But this might not apply if Halachicaly that land is not truly owned by Jews, which might be the case in regards to Israel as it is not a Halachicaly legitimate state (I stress Halachicaly, as according to all secular understanding, Israel is a totally legitimate state). And more importantly, all Mitzvos of the Torah can be broken to save life (except the 3 cardinal prohibitions). Supporting the two state solution, is an acceptable position and supported by many Haredi, and non Haredi Orthodox Rabbis.

There is no response to your assertion that holding a view, implicit in Judaism, held by the majority of Jews for the majority of Jewish history is personal arrogance. I am only sad that you view me that way. All I can say is that I don’t in any way claim to speak on behalf of all Jews.

And yes we do work to to bring about our own redemption as a nation, but not by the means you would agree with. By learning Torah, by performing Mitzvos, by improving ourselves, and by secular means as well.

There is no doubt that you and I have a very different view as to what constitutes the redemption of the Jewish nation. You view Israel as that redemption, I do not. Let us agree to differ.

Jews moan about being persecuted. Speaking on behalf of all Jews are you? And Jews throughout history have worked very hard to prevent persecution, just because they did not seek to create a state, please don’t denigrate their efforts.

When you say I agitate against their right to have their own country, I simply don’t agree.

I make no political argument about the acceptability of the State of Israel, only a religious argument. I do not support, secular anti-Zionists, or anti-Zionists motivated by philosophies drawn from other religions.

I do not seek the destruction of the State of Israel.

My views are simply that, mine. My non/anti-Zionism is expressed by my non identification with the State, and with my not celebrating its festivals, and with my non-interest in it’s flag, it’s anthem etc.

No matter what you say, I will always view the Jews of Israel, and of any other country for that matter, as my people, my nation. I don’t tell them what to do, I simply give my opinion in the course of debate, or if asked.

I have not fought in Israel’s wars no. I have on the other hand contributed many pounds and many tears and many prayers for the continued safety of my fellow Jews in our precious and holy Land.

Fabian from Israel
26 October 2008, 2:12 pm

Maven: you are reading too much Little Green Footballs.
I used to like the blog, but it has become hysterical. Defeat does that to some.

mitnaged
26 October 2008, 2:19 pm

Richard Farnos, yes I am. I am a Chartered Psychologist with substantial experience in working with people with all sort of mental illnesses but I wouldn’t take on Greenstein, not least because he thinks that we’re all out of step with him…. He would have to be ready to sort himself out and it’d still be immensely difficult for him even if he were.

NearlyOxfordian, yes they are arbitrary labels and often psychologists and psychiatrists thenselves disagree about them, which I think is healthy and keeps them mindful. Having read Mikey’s account, however, and having heard something of Greenstein’s tendency to lash out in the past I stand by what I wrote above and you don’t have to agree with me! Your disagreeing keeps ME mindful and thanks for it.

I feel compassion for Greenstein as I would for anyone who got himself into trouble because he couldn’t control himself but I am not blinded to the fact that his acting out, (and as I have already said, this is not the first time), is dangerous not least because he cannot see that he has done anyone any harm.

Maven - “..We have been trying to do a denigration psychological analysis…” Well I haven’t. I have taken what I have heard about Greenstein from reputable sources and set it against the incident where Mikey describes how he was attacked. If this were the first time I had heard about Greenstein’s antics I believe that I would have written in similar terms. EVEN IF Mikey had deliberately got in Greenstein’s way, the resulting OTT reaction cannot, I believe, be explained away or made light of. Greenstein is a loose cannon and loose cannons can be dangerous.

Alec, I would imagine that David does not want to be sued by Greenstein,who has sued in the past when the public has been reminded of his “colourful” reactions to things and activities…

ami
26 October 2008, 2:38 pm

It is puzzling that the creepy lot who are locked in tedious and eternal battle with Greenstein, and who sometimes leak onto this site, (I see you have quite rightly deleted the latest) make reference to spent convictions incessantly and with apparent impunity.

Nearly Oxfordian
26 October 2008, 2:44 pm

Just quickly:

Jews moan about being persecuted. Speaking on behalf of all Jews are you?

Were exactly did I use the word ‘all’, and where exactly did I claim to be ’speaking on behalf’ of anyone, in any shape or form? I made a factual, historical observation. Are you denying that a great many Jews, over a great many periods of history, have moaned about being persecuted? I am astonished that you deny this simple fact. It can be corroborated quite easily.

It is also a fact that some of those people so moaning, have done nothing practical to prevent that persecution. Sorry, I don’t regard prayer as a practical measure.

Donating financially is great, but you have not specified the destination of those donations. Therefore, I cannot comment on the effectiveness of those donations. You will have gathered by now that I do not regard donations to yeshivas, I mean yeshivas whose members do not serve in the IDF by using various loopholes that I regard as dishonest, as effective in defending the safety of fellow Jews. But if you have hypothecated your donations to (e.g.) MDA, or Va’ad Le-ma’an He-Khayal, that’s a different matter, of course.

Nearly Oxfordian
26 October 2008, 2:47 pm

this might not apply if Halachicaly that land is not truly owned by Jews, which might be the case in regards to Israel as it is not a Halachicaly legitimate state

Are you saying that the tombs of Abraham, Rachel and Joseph are not part of Eretz Israel?

Mike S
26 October 2008, 2:53 pm

I don’t have a dog in this increasingly peculiar argument, but a former acquaintance of mine who had a worrying fondness for getting into punch-ups swore by the shin-kick as an opening gambit. He claimed it gave him a crucial element of surprise.

If I were one of Mikey’s friends, I’d probably advise him to get a new hobby. This current one seems a little peculiar.

Nearly Oxfordian
26 October 2008, 2:53 pm

Mitnaged,

I don’t think we actually disagree ;-)

Whether someone is regarded as mentally ill, or as someone with psychotic episodes, seems to me a matter of nomenclature. Are we not in agreement that such a person is suffering from some sort of disorder? It would then be down to you, as the professional, to decide what to do about him/her (should s/he seek help and should you decide that s/he would benefit from it). That’s all I am saying.

And of course, yes, a person with certain behaviours would be dangerous and must be handled with caution.

Nearly Oxfordian
26 October 2008, 2:55 pm

Yes, it is a peculiar thread - but what fun!

YossiUK
26 October 2008, 3:00 pm

“Are you saying that the tombs of Abraham, Rachel and Joseph are not part of Eretz Israel?”

I am not saying that at all, I am saying that there is a difference between Eretz Yisroel and Medinat Yisrael. And that just because territory is controlled by or is part of Medinat Yisrael, it does not mean that such ownership has any halachic validity. And that in order to save lives, ceding Land would be legitimate.

As for the destination of my contributions, a small list would include;

Yeshivas
Yad Ezra V’Shulamit.
Migdal Ohr.
Zaka.
MDA.

Appeals to help the people of Sderot.

Appeals to support the families of terror victims

Appeals to provide support for Israel’s brave soldiers.

I could go on.

I just mean to stress, that disagreeing with the political ideology of Zionism, and non identification with it’s symbols does not prevent me from aiding and supporting the Jewish community in Eretz Yisroel.

Mikey
26 October 2008, 3:17 pm

I should be grateful if people would stop attacking YossiUK on this thread, it really is not necessary. Many Orthodox Jews see the State of Israel in a very different light to those of secular Zionist Jews. For anyone interested I suggest the following book:

Harry Rabinowicz, Hasidism and the State of Israel, (London and Toronto: The Littman Library of Jewish Civilization, Associated University Presses, Inc., 1982)

Mikey
26 October 2008, 3:22 pm

MikeS says:

If I were one of Mikey’s friends, I’d probably advise him to get a new hobby. This current one seems a little peculiar.

All I can say in response is that MikeS is not the only person to have said that to me over the years. I will say that by doing so, I have managed to collect a fine collection of contemporary anti-Zionist literature.

David T
26 October 2008, 3:23 pm

I am very sorry to say that, as somebody is repeatedly posting details of spent criminal convictions, I am going to have to close this thread.